Now, before you get all riled up about this, I am not arguing one side or another. I want to know is that is it even possible to determine intellectual differences between races. With political correctness being so pervasive in all aspects of our lives, is it possible for an unbiased researcher to attempt to answer this question without having his/her career destroyed?
I know some people are going to say that this is an impossible question to answer because of the difficulties in measuring intelligence. So, lets make the question more specific: is it possible to determine which race has a better aptitude for, say, trigonometry?
Morpheus, you shouldn’t be at all surprised if people react badly to this thread. The way you titled it (with “intelligent” spelled wrong, no less) and your views of race as a static thing do not lend themselves to debate.
The differences between the races, biologically, is negligible. In fact, the very concept of race disappears when we try to scrutinize it scientifically.
It is 2 AM and I am not going to point you to the last N threads about this. Just search for “race” and “genetics” over the last month and you’ll find them.
Next, intelligence is dependent (mostly, IMHO) on environment, development, and culture. In order to correlate intelligence with a population, any study has to remove any of these aspects. This is quite impossible.
Also, we can’t ask the question “Does one culture or upbringing correlate with intelligence?” because all measurements of “intelligence” are in some way flawed and culturally biased. For instance, a Khoisan bushman does perfectly well in an environment that would kill an ordinary American in a few weeks. But, I’d bet most can’t define “modem” (which was a question on a trial IQ test they were testing at my high school 9 years ago). Simply put, intelligence is broadly defined and no one test can hope to quantify it.
(1) The linked threads more than adequately explore the idea of race as a biological entity.
(2) If you mean are blacks biologically stupider than whites, the answer is no as neither term has any meaning on a genetic basis.
(3) Intelligence itself is a highly subjective term outside of really gross differences, we have no good, objective ways to measure it.
(4) If one is asking about general research on different school achievement by race (w or w/o realization of the biological issue), plenty of research on that, I see no careers ruined, AFAIK.
PC has nothing to fuck to do with this.
Brief, let me hope this is brief.
(Greetings all, hmmmm, this makes how many mentions in one thread. My ears are burning.)
Morph, you’re thinking about it the wrong way… first off, we have no idea if there’s any set of genes that determine intelligence (though we can probably find most defects that result in intelligence-hampering disorders). Second, it’s very, very unlikely the genes that control skin color/hair/etc. would in any way, shape, or form be linked to the genes (if any) that control intelligence.
So, basically, the answer to your question is “No”. Some black people are stupid, some white people are stupid. That’s just the way it goes.
Oh, and regarding the negative reaction… you just posed your question at a bad time, is all. There’ve been a lot of heated arguments about genetics and intelligence over the past month or two. Don’t worry about it.
there was some guy, Eisler maybe, who, in the 60s, scientifically proved that black Americans were 10% less intelligent [IQ wise] than Whites. The fact that it came out amid a period of civil rights movements and right-wing conservative backlashes made him an easy target or inspiration for many. He still maintains that his findings are entirely factual and correct.
Whatever anyone thinks, this raises a very important question. How can anyone even establish what intelligence is, beyond a reasonable doubt? Everyone should question the very level of analysis that aptitude tests, personality tests and IQ tests operate on and, do these numbers actually mean anything? The fact is that these tests have all been made by a section of society, largely an intellegencia who, mostly unknowingly, will bias things one way or another.
Looking at the male/female IQ debate, it’s fairly similar. There are physiological differences but intellegence is identical but aptitudes are different, but environment plays a key role. The point is: it’s stupid to talk in terms of intelligence and more beneficial to talk in terms of ability - which every human has plenty of, regardless of sex or race.
It’s about opportunities, providing everyone has the chance to learn and to be educated, or to develop skills that lets them contribute fully to the world and to participate in it, then this race/intelligence thing will disappear - hopefully.
One can not scientifically prove a difference w/o first supporting the categories used (i.e. that they are valid) and establishing causation. Now of course the data is clear that there is a difference in scholastic achievement testing between whites and blacks. No arguments. The Q is causation.
What are his findings precisely? If he’s attributing differences to biology, than he’s just an out of date old fuck who adheres to disproven materials. Otherwise, we are in the realm of culture and society, which is rather murky.
I suppose in the future greater understanding of brain function etc. will help clarify the bounds of intelligence, but as you say, the concept is murky.
I personally find the comparision with gender deceptive for there are real fixed differences (speaking in terms of biology) between genders. That introduces a fundamental difference in the issues as there is not any such fixed differences between “races” – of course there is a similarity insofar as socially defined differences are often incorrectly ascribed w/o any real basis to biological differences.
No blood? No gore? No savaging of the original poster? No one biting chunks out of his buttocks and letting him know what a racist bigot and ignorant fool he is??
my point was quite simple: i don’t think anyone can define intelligence.
base it on aptitude tests and there’s the problem of education - who gets it, what kind etc.
base it on biology: how do you make epirical into something meaningful without projecting already conceived notions you as an individual or a society is and isnt aware of.
It’s about one contentious issue: is intelligence bioligical/scientific or is it cultural/environmental?
Bottom line about my point is that it shouldn’t matter what race or sex of nation or culture or zip code is more important. Every state of the world should make it possible for every human and citizen to develop to their full potential. If you begin getting into the above language - things get unhelpfully conflictual.
