To put it in historical perspective, there had been matriarchal before men rose to power due to a variety of reasons. To find out these reasons some good intro text for archeology or paleolithic history should give you a lot of leads.
Damn. I meant “…matriarchal societies…”
just hink, sweetie, baby, i ain’t 'merkin.
so trying to refute anything i say by using a hackneyed version of US divorce law won’t cut it.
in many european legal systems the wife is not entitled to half of her husbands earnings “without legal debate”.
nor can she still claim alimony if she re-marries.
but what, exactly that has to do with ANYTHING i wrote about societal expectations about the role of wife as housekeeper which still exist even if she already has a job?
(i don’t think you really like women, do you? you certainly seem to have some very odd views about us.)
as for the “as good as” lets assume the OP means
“is a human female life of equal value to a human male life”
the answer of course being yes.
It’s an anthropological myth, cherished by some women’s studies departments and textbooks, that at one time there were matriarchal societies. There have never been any truly matriarchal societies in history.
A cite for my previous post.
Walloon,
It is probably more correct to say that there isn’t sufficient evidence to support a matriachial prehistory - which isn’t to say such societies never existed.
However, I think its wishful anthropology and bad science to make such a claim.
Gee golly.
I’d like to get some cites for “women cannot think in the abstract as well as men can.” Not only is that statement a gross generalization, I believe it’s the opposite conclusion of a lot of research out there.
One piece of research I am familiar with is an experiment on male and female cognitive differences indicating that women and men do have some different strengths in cognition, but they are not so generic as abstract/concrete. For example, women are far more able to notice small, subtle differences in a small environment – Mom’s gonna notice that her favorite vase isn’t where it usually is, for instance.
As for female/male superiority…I have some theories on this. Note that these are THEORIES, mind you; I’m not a historian, I’m not a doctor.
Way way back in hunter/gatherer days, the females of our species cared for the children out of instinct and apparent affinity (the child visibly came from them, after all) and gathered food because this was the easiest chore to do while taking kids along. The fact that women have less upper body strength also makes them less able hunters. Men, who are genetically predisposed to slightly greater physical aggression (good trait for them in those days, or they’d go hungry), were the hunters (note: hunter can be used fairly loosely; evidence suggests that early man was a scavenger more than a hunter). Because a man that can provide is a man that will make a good protector, early woman latched onto these men and the species was thus bred for aggression and cleverness.
The real question is, though, in the thousands of years that have followed since then, why is it only recently that women have started climbing higher? Two easy answers – inertia and acculturation.
Let’s look at inertia first. A body at rest tends to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force, and that outside force was progress. That’s oversimplifying it, but stay with me here. It was soon no longer unnecessary that women stay at home and do “womens’ work”, it became impractical. Cities in and of themselves made such a distinction untenable – women frequently needed to work in order to support their families. Note that the suffrage movement became successful in 1920, when citydwellers were rising in heretofore unknown numbers. World War II kind of tore it, too – women had been working out of absolute necessity, and now that they’d tasted the other side, many women didn’t want to leave. It’s living history from there.
Which brings us to culture. Look at this rationally – in return for less freedom and legal representation, you get to rely completely on someone else. That person is legally required to provide for you and your children to the best of his ability (check out most patriarchal societies – women might not have legal rights, per se, but men that actually oppressed their wives were usually vilified) and makes every necessary decision. Now, the thought kind of turns my stomach, but it has its attractions. It’s easier to let someone else make your decisions; don’t fool yourself into believing that lots of people don’t do it nowadays (I’m sure the President/my senator/the judge/the King/the priest knows what’s best for me). As subjugation evolved into manners (hold the door, carry the heavy boxes, bring her flowers, etc), it became an even sweeter deal for women. We’ve always been able to bait our words with sex, and the more we’re disregarded as silly and frivolous, the more we can get away with.
The “behind every great man” quote isn’t so much about artists. They can be inspired, but it’s rarely loved ones that do the inspiring. No, the great woman is frequently the lover that pouts and sighs when her husband is going to fight another war or put off getting new wallpaper. Women have always been powerful, but there’s never been a need for women to be the ones in power. There’s a distinct difference. Women don’t necessarily have the same sort of competitive instinct that men do, so the lust for power is usually lost on us. There’s always exceptions, but they tend to be famous ones.
Sure, if women mobilize, they can gain themselves power. Look at the past century – we’ve turned tens of thousands of years of gender roles onto their heads. Why have women never done it before? Never really had a big need to do so.
As for womens’ rights in ancient cultures, there are several in which women, while they had different roles from men, were not considered lesser. Not as physically strong, perhaps, but not lesser. Take the Ancient Egyptians – their women had quite a bit of freedom compared to other cultures in the ancient world, as well as to most civilizations up to the past couple centuries.
this is like two overlapping bell curves each skewed in different directions. women tend to be better at some things than men tho some men will be better at those things than some women. men tend to be better at some things than women, etc.
but in patriarchal cultures the male traits will be VALUED more highly. beware of men on ego trips.
off course there is less data on matriarchal cultures. the patriarchal cultures tend to destroy them.
Dal Timgar
other people have said this, i think,
it only matters if domination is a goal
I think it’s a male goal, i don’t know if it’s a female goal
if it was, i think the women would have gotten together by now and shut us pigs out.
it really all depends on the goal, what we want to accomplish
wrestling- i’ll take any woman on, even better than andy kaufman
shoe shopping- my wife can whoop anyone, hands down
she thinks wrestling’s dumb and isn’t a worthy goal, and i feel the same about shoes that match a purse
i think we just have different goals
My brain just twitched.
just hink, sweetie, baby, i ain’t 'merkin.
so trying to refute anything i say by using a hackneyed version of US divorce law won’t cut it.
True, apologies.
““in many european legal systems the wife is not entitled to half of her husbands earnings “without legal debate”.””
True.
““nor can she still claim alimony if she re-marries.””
True (though I did say not to re-marry)
“”“but what, exactly that has to do with ANYTHING i wrote about societal expectations about the role of wife as housekeeper which still exist even if she already has a job?”""
You were complaining about something that has a pretty severe loophole in the US. A semi-clever woman can ‘retire’ in her mid 20’s if she hatches a bogus marriage for a few years and quits working right when the marriage certificate is signed.
(i don’t think you really like women, do you? you certainly seem to have some very odd views about us.)
I have a thing about transparency and intelligence/counter-intelligence - I have not experienced women being intelligently constructed to the degree that this issue boggles me about life/existence in general. I don’t see it often in males either! In females though; it’s been 0%. Gets a big smile and puffs up his chest; this is from my point of veiw though ---- you see… intelligence really depends on whether you act in accordance with my wishes!
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as for the “as good as” lets assume the OP means
“is a human female life of equal value to a human male life”
the answer of course being yes."""""
I tend to agree that we are all as good as each-other; as I believe turth is absolute in that any ‘error’ is simply due to lack of exposure. The only thing I want to destroy (I’m a ‘pacifist’) is counter-intelligence and all forms of non-transparency. This is my life goal.
-Justhink
oh not again.
I found reading this thread. Fairly amusing. Nothing I can ad really but that it reminds me a bit of my fiancee’s son. He’s 24 and works as in the warehouse of a major city food distributor. He makes more money than his mother does as a mental health clinician and chemical dependancy counsellor. She raised him entirely on her own as she was getting her master’s degree and sometimes had to depend on her students to babysit when she got her first college teaching job. On one occasion he was moaning about his love life and how certain women had manipulated him emotionally. Most of us have been there so I have some sympathy. He continued to moan about woman having is incredibly easy in life because they could use sex to get what they want. He asked if I agreed and all I could do was laugh and say “you are so fucking on your own on that.”
IMVHO physical and social advantages are a poor measure of strength. Someone who perserveres when they are at a disadvantage shows real strength.