Out of curiosity, what studies/evidence have truly shown the sexes to be mentally and moral (in the “do on to others as you would have done on to you” and “do not bear false witness against you neighbor” meaning) equal? Just from personal experience (the ultimate in empiricism) I could not agree. Maybe I just choose not to be around the worst examples of men, but in the individuals I associate with the men generaly seem like better human beings. How much objective reseach has been done comparing men and women both mentally and moraly? Is there a good reason why many (most?) societies use to subjugate their women and see them as unclean?
That’s right,
Mother Theresa, what a bitch.
Pol Pot on the other hand, gem of a human being.
P.S. What’s with all the recent misogyny? First we have “why are women so bitchy?” now this. Really, some of you guys had better find a better class of women to hang with.
Dangerosa, One example is not the whole. I’m willing to admit that neither are all the women I have met, but at least it’s more than one.
grenadier1974 wrote:
Better in what sense? Better at lifting heavy objects? Better at cognitive skills? Better in bed?
to tracer,
In Honesty, Thought, and the ability to put themselves in the other persons shoes.
grenadier,
Your experience is not the whole either, which you readily admit.
How about incarceration rates, men vs. women. Would that be a more sample population?
Yes, that would be of interest. Not a complete picture mind you, but still of interest.
I don’t think any empirical study could definitively show that one gender is better or worse in honesty, morality, ethics, or what have you. This may seem like an overly simplistic way to look at things, but men and women are individuals, they are human beings, and as such they have their OWN STANDARDS for what they deem to be an acceptable, realistic level of honesty, morality . . . to be. As such both genders are not perfect. There are some days when they are more honest, moral, . . ., and other days when they fall short of that mark. What equalizes men and women, however, is the fact that we inhabit the planet earth. We are both challenged to try to survive in the same global environment. How we do that is up to each individual and the specific challenges that s/he faces.
quote:
“Is there a good reason why many (most?) societies use to subjugate their women and see them as unclean?”
No. There is no moral or honest excuse for the subjugation of women or of men. I think the reason it happens though is ignorance. People tend to vilify and dominate what they don’t understand, rather than try to communicate with and respect difference. So basically, sexism–whether it’s men subjugating women, men subjugating men, women subjugating women, or women subjugating men–is bad because in seeking to control and define what is unknown and feared, men and women cannot progress to higher levels of consciousness, morality, honesty, ethics, or whatever.
:rolleyes:
Yes.
approximate quote from Elizabeth Janeway, circa 1971:
Regardless of whether or not you feel ready to nominate one or two “built-in differences” for consideration as more than an “unresolvable hypothesis”, the fundamental sense of what she is saying here still stands: what the fuck do you gain by observing a difference of the sort that you are describing in the OP and then attempting to conclude that the observed differences occurs because “men and women are just different that way”?
I should also add that I don’t agree with your observation itself, either.
My experience is very much the opposite. I have not found males to be spectacularly moral in their treatment of people, nor very wise or alert to realities around them, albeit many exceptions certainly exist. In fact, I’ve tended to be embarrassed by my gender and have resented being tarred by the reputation that other males have created just because I am a male as well.
And thus we have the empirical imperative, we can not trust someone else’s perceptions because they may only be allowing themselves to see what they want to see, and by extension we can not trust our own for we may be doing the same. I will admit I may be overlooking the transgressions of my fellow male, buy my own experience are what I have to go by. I am in agreement that it would be hard to measure such abstract concepts as morality in scientific terms. One of the reasons I disregard much of modern psychology and sociology is because the topics they deal with are hard to measure and people skew the results to fit their world view (they remind me somewhat of creationist in that manner, trying to find proof for their world view as oppose to trying to disprove it to see if it works like science should). To bad they can’t be more like the hard sciences, but I guess that’s the nature of the subject matter.
Actually, take back my last post re: incarceration rates. If you use that data to support that men are less moral than women, you could use it to support that blacks are less moral than whites, when we all know its not a matter of genetics as much as other factors (poverty, urban culture, racial profiling, etc).
Instead, I’ll just say the question is offensive. If you, Grenadier, have known few immoral men, I’m impressed at your ability to pick male companions. And if you’ve known few moral women, I am unimpressed with your ability to surround yourself with women of quality. I, myself, have known a few real pricks, along with plenty of sweet kind men. And I’ve known some real bitches, along with plenty of sweet kind women.
Another question, whenever we say women are equal are we not just making a statement of faith?
Another question, whenever we say women are equal are we not just making a statement of faith? If it can not be show or measured it seems like just faith.
No, we are stating a course of action - that women should be treated as equal to men.
And, to be the devils advocate, what are we basing this statment of action on?
grenadier1974 whats your definiton of a man and whats your definition of a woman?
Before you can declare that the two are inequal maybe you should clearly define the two.
Uhmmm, this seems a bit silly but lets break it down to reproductive organs. Shall we say the male and the female of the human animal?
On the fact that there’s no good reason to do otherwise.
Does your personal experience include checking the people you were talking about for their reproductive organs? If not, then that is not too good a way of classifying male and female.