I wouldn’t do it. I like to know how much money I make so I can plan for stuff. I waitressed very briefly when I was younger. I’m not good at it and I don’t like the uncertainty.
Same reason I don’t sell anything for a living. Commission is just too iffy.
That said, we are trapped in the tipping system and I don’t want to fuck someone over just because we’ve adopted a stupid system. I know the person isn’t making enough to live on unless I tip. So I do. When the system changes, so will I.
I think we have people talking past each other here. No one suggested someone can be arrested for not tipping. I don’t believe there’s a single person suggesting that someone doesn’t have the legal right to leave the restaurant without tipping. But legal does not equal “right.”
The established custom is that tipping is part of the expected (not legally required) price of a meal (assuming good service). Foreigners, hicks and buffoons may be unaware of this, but everyone else is quite aware. So, does that mean someone must leave a tip? Nope. It just means they’re violating the custom, one a person relies on to make a living, which makes them inconsiderate. Where’s the disagreement?
So, if a poor family scrapes together just enough pennies to go to a restaurant, but not enough to tip, it is simply a matter of opinion if this is crappy behavior. No one would argue, I don’t think, that they aren’t flouting the custom or that they’re doing something illegal. IMO, they’re being jerks. In your opinion they’re not. Neither you or I are saying they “must” leave a tip, however. As for this from Martini…
…not sure what your point is. “The boss” ultimately ain’t paying the person’s wages in ANY scenario. You (and I) are. The customer. I don’t get the argument that makes it less your responsibility (morally) if it comes in the form of a tip.
By the way, would you skip out on a meal without paying, using the same logic? If not, is it only because that’s illegal? Is that the only hurdle you need overcome? Or doesn’t human decency demand that we all compensate others for the value they provide, whether it’s the price of the meal or the effort of serving it?
My wife used to be a waitress. People stiffed her. Part of the business. Doesn’t make it less shitty, however. Here’s a question for those who don’t want to tip. Would you be comfortable–and wouldn’t it be the decent thing–to announce to your server right at the start that you don’t intend to tip? Let’s use the Dr_P logic here. Every diner knows perfectly well that a given server might provide service that is not as good as another server’s or that is less than what is given to another table. It’s part of the “clearly spelled out conditions” of eating in a restaurant–i.e., no server is legally required to give you excellent service. Why not give the server the option of focusing her “extra” energies on tables that understand that tips are part of the equation, so long as you get the bare minimum? Isn’t that more honest and fair?
To answer this question directly, because every state or province has different sales taxes, and sometimes additional sales taxes are added in cities or counties (in the USA anyway; I don’t believe Canadian municipalities have sales tax powers in most cases.) The same product can have different sales taxes depending on where you buy it; a carton of milk in a grocery store is not taxed in Ontario, but the same carton is taxed if you buy it at the McDonald’s across the street. Applying the after-tax price to many retail item tags would be a tremendous headache for a national retailer who could, quite conceivably, have to worry about hundreds of potentially different sales tax situations. It’s logistically easier to add tax during the point-of-sale process.
There are a few products where sales taxes are figured in, but not many. Gasoline is always a flat price, with the sales and fuel taxes figured in.
Okay, you’ve a right to your opinion.
But just so you know, it’s not just in restaurants. Go into any store of any kind, from clothing to grocery, and the price you see is the price BEFORE tax.
Also, the tax has been dropped 1%, so it’s actually 14% on most items. 
And as I explained at length in the previous thread on the subject- and had other posters from Australia backing me up- LOCALS ARE NOT EXPECTED TO TIP IN AUSTRALIA.
All your cites are aimed at TOURISTS- tourists, largely from the US, who tip at home anyway, and are likely to do it when on holiday in Australia. And as I’ve said before, a tip on top of waitstaff’s already very good pay is quite literally “Free Money”, and no-one is going to discourage tourists from giving free money to the locals when they’re on holiday. 
Remember, we get paid very well anyway- average wage for waitstaff in QLD is around AUD$16/hr, up to AUD$30/hr on Public Holidays/after 10pm.
Now, if you’re some uber-rich guy dining at a 5-star restaurant in Melbourne, and the waiter/waitress has provided exceptional service- getting a window table in a packed restaurant for a couple celebrating their anniversary who didn’t have a reservation, for example- then you personally might feel it appropriate to slip them a few dollars by way of thanks, but it is purely discretionary, there is no expectation of a tip, and as someone said earlier in the thread, it’s not a trend we want to encourage, as it could lead to a situation like the one in the US (ie, waitstaff get paid peanuts and customers are expected to pay the staff themselves), and worse, encourage the idea that their “standard” service should be anything less than top-notch in the first place.
Australia’s a big place, BTW, and what’s true of Sydney or Melbourne isn’t necessarily true of Brisbane or Perth, which again may not be true of Adelaide or Hobart. In other words, a website from Sydney saying rich people in hotels should tip 10% of the meal only applies to Sydney, and doesn’t mean that every time I or one of my friends dines at a restaurant in Brisbane, we should be leaving 10% of the bill as a “tip”. Locals aren’t expected to tip, at least not in Queensland, and I’ve never seen ANYONE leaving tips at any establishment I’ve dined in throughout Australia, hence another reason why I dismiss your web-based cites as irrelevant for two reasons: they’re aimed at a different demographic (tourists), and in instances were tipping is available (ie, “tip jars” in cafes), it’s completely and totally 100% optional and customers are NOT expected to tip the staff- in contrast to the US system where a tip IS expected from customers.
Thanks for the explanation re: taxes not in the price, Rickjay- I can see how that approach would make a lot more logistical sense for most retailers. Still confusing to tourists though, when the price on something jumps nearly 10% and the clerk just shrugs and says “taxes”.
No, I wouldn’t skip out on a meal without paying- because there is a cost associated with acquiring the ingredients and preparing them. However, if the restaurant was selling their meals for below cost and expected me to add 20% to the price because otherwise they wouldn’t have enough money to stay in business, I’d tell them to get stuffed and put their prices up to a point where they were making a profit- and thus it is with tipping.
Those cultural differences come into play again, correct? From the impression that I get is that when you dine out in the US, you feel that the price you pay reflects the price of the MEAL only, right? Whereas, when we dine out in Australia, the price reflects the meal AND the service required to bring you said meal.
As I outlined earlier in the thread, I don’t see how bringing me a plate of food and a glass of drink is worth more than a dollar or two, regardless of whether I’m ordering a bowl full of buffalo wedges and a glass of Coke or an exquisite Lobster Royale and glass of '67 Dom Perignon. And again, if I leave, say, $2 as a tip then it’s insulting to the waitperson, because it says “I’m aware of the way tipping works, and I think you did a crappy job”- or, I can leave NO tip, which just re-affirms the stereotype Australians don’t tip. And since, by and large, we don’t, option B works out the best IMO, although your results can and almost certainly do vary.
Of course, I’m prepared to re-evaluate that for truly amazing exceptional service that goes above and beyond the call of duty, so to speak- but I maintain that “just doing your job” doesn’t warrant a tip, which again comes down to one of those insurmountable cultural barriers.
And Stratocaster: Thank you. You’ve said, in a few paragraphs, EXACTLY what I’ve been trying to say. Thank goodness someone understands!
You’re missing the point. There’s a cost associated with serving your meals as well. In the U.S. a large portion of that is paid for with tips. What in the world is the difference?
You’re welcome!
Yes, I can see how that works out just great for you. :rolleyes:
You seem to want it both ways. On one hand, you’re looking down on American tourists who come to Australia and saying, “Silly Americans, we don’t tip over here!” But, if you were to go to the US, you seem to think it’s perfectly okay for you to continue to follow the customs of YOUR country.
Why is okay for YOU to ignore the customs and practices of other countries, but not for other people to do the same thing in your country?
As for, “It’s not that much work!” HA HAHAHAHAH!!! Oh, that’s a good one. Pull the other one-it’s got bells on it.
How do you feel knowing that the waitstaff is STILL going to be taxed on what you should have tipped them, thus they are technically paying to wait on you? You don’t like the system, so it’s okay to take it out on the little guy?
That’s incredibly rude.
Since the vast majority of tourists in North America are other North Americans, it usually works out fine.
If by “works out the best” you mean “fucks over the waiter so I can keep a few bucks, and makes people think that Australians are a bunch of assholes,” I guess you’re right.
Since none of us are ever likely to agree on the whole tipping thing, I’m going to thank you all for the (mostly) intelligent and civilised discussion, and bow out of this thread.
I’ll chalk it down to massive cultural differences, and further make a note that tipping- like whether people should take their shoes off in another’s home- appears to be one of those SDMB flashpoints that inspire a lot of heated discussion in otherwise sane and rational people.
Incidentally, has anyone else noticed the google ads for this thread have NOTHING to do with restaurants or jobs?
Well, as you can see, one of my cites is from BRISBANE (and nearly all of them mention that the practice is fairly recent, too). It’s all well and good that you claim, and you claim that your friends claim, but that sort of citation is unverifiable. My cites are there for anyone to read, question, or if you like send an email to them questioning. Your “cites” are personal and unverifiable, and frankly, after several threads where you have ranted on about the eviiils of Tipping and why us Yanks are wrong for doing it this way, you are quite frankly obviously biased. Thus, sorry, mate, I don’t believe you. Oh, yes, I beleive that you don’t tip. :rolleyes:
Some of those are GOVERNMENT cites, I can just see the problems if the Australian government was advising foriegn tourists to tip, whilst quietly laffing behind their hands at us rich yank yokels. :dubious: That ain’t gonna happen, dude.
Feel free to email some of those sites, like the Brisbane visitor bureau and let us know what they say,eh?
Don’t get me wrong, clearly Tipping is nowhere near as entrenched in Au as the USA. Wages are higher. At cheaper restaurants it seems that the “tip jar” (seen only at US Fast food places, and not even always then) or leaving the change behind is all that seems to be even moderately common. And even the 10%, is only for excelent service at the top end restaurants, where in the USA you would tip at the very least 20% for that level of service. And, yes, I am guessing that it did start mainly with “rich yank tourists”.
But still, either Martini is closing his eyes, out of date, refusing to believe it, or perhaps is just stubborn and or cheap.
http://www.fodors.com/features/nfdisply1.cfm?name=stt/010124_stt_tg_australia.cfm&CFID=777672&CFTOKEN=12452644
Hotels and restaurants do not add service charges, but it is a widely accepted practice to tip a waiter 10%-12% for good service, although many Australians consider it sufficient to leave only A$3 or A$4.
http://www.gate1travel.com/tahiti-travel/South-Pacific-travel-tips.htm
Australia & New Zealand: Although tipping is not compulsory in Australia or New Zealand, it is perfectly acceptable to tip for excellent service, it is always the individuals choice. A tip of between 10% to 15% is a general rule.
http://community.iexplore.com/planning/journalEntryDining.asp?journalID=21417&entryID=14867&n=Doyle’s+Seafood+Restaurant
A word about tipping. Tipping is not traditional in Australia, however we did tip in situations where the food and service were really good. As there is a place for a tip on credit card slips, I would say that tipping is, at the very least, encouraged.
http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Australia_and_Oceania/Australia/State_of_Queensland/Cairns-1878548/Restaurants-Cairns-BR-1.html
the food was passable at best and the service was so bad that I had to go to the bar twice to get refills for our water. Not only that but when no waitress/waiter came to pick up my credit card payment I had to once again go to the bar but this time to pay. Thankfully there was nowhere on the bill for a tip. (Australia does not have tipping in the way that the US does however this was the only restaurant during our vacation that did not have a place on the bill to write in a tip) Perhaps if they had tipping the waiters/waitresses would pay more attention to the customers…
Here’s an* Australian* writer, writing NOT for tourists, but for her fellow Aussies:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19663884-35655,00.html
ANOTHER dilemma: tipping. Are we or aren’t we to tip in Australian restaurants? Detective’s theory has long been that one should tip if a meal has been sensational, as a little thankyou. But frequently I find myself weakening in the face of the determined stare of a mediocre waiter who seems to be silently demanding their cut. So it’s $10 here, $10 there. But aren’t waiters paid wages and aren’t their wages included in the price of a $40 main course?
So, it seems that many Aussies are resisting tipping, but it is becomeing far more common that M E would like to admit.
I’m still interested in a response to this from the “it’s OK not to tip” brigade. Any possible rationale for not telling the server upfront that a tip is not in her future? It’s honest, and it lets the waitress decide whether or not to provide service above the bare minimum. If your answer is, “No, I wouldn’t,” why?
Because it’s embarassing to the person being tipped, that’s why. It’s like you’ve just downgraded them from ‘equal’ to ‘servant’.
If you (completley generic ‘you’, not Rick) don’t think they’re doing their job, by all means tell the manager. If you think they’re doing a *great *job, also tell the manager. But you can’t wave money at them as a reward or punishment system. We really do appreciate that in your country it’d be the opposite, and that not tipping is treating the staff as less-than-equals (because they rely on the tips to make a living), but here it’s just considered somehow … *oogy *… in a sort of ‘beggar’ way.
So please, don’t tip if you’re in Australia - regardless of what you may read in travel books written by people who don’t live here. 
We pay waitstaff a good wage. When you’re paying a decent wage to your employees, you can afford to be picky about who you hire, and you expect them to always perform their best. This is the reason you’ll almost invariably get good service anywhere you go in Australia. It’s just simple logic: employers won’t continue paying good money for bad employees.
Of course, with those *wonderful * :rolleyes: workplace reform laws our PM has put in to make us more like the US, no doubt the requirement for tipping so that people can make a living wage will be the next thing we take on.
Another non-US person here. On the OP, when I visit I do tip - used to be 10%, but recently have gone to around 15% rounded up on the full bill, as this seems to be the new norm.
Perhaps there are a couple of reasons visitors are resentful about paying a tip. Normally when you pay for a meal, it’s hard to identify the relative parts of the bill that correspond to different elements (the food, electricity, service etc), and so the whole bill is for the meal as a whole, and you just accept this as the cost of eating out.
But when being asked to separately pay for one element, this does make me more likely to judge specifically what is being paid for - and I would say (in my subjective experience), service in many other countries is on average better than in the US - so I am being asked to consciously factor a number for something that may not have met my expectations. I am going to resent this, since as as a visitor, I am really aware of the pressure to pay a tip pretty much regardless of the quality of service (unless really bad).
In addition, the cost of the food (with the salary costs supposedly removed) does not appear to be markedly cheaper (when converted back to normal currency compared to other purchases), which along with my normal experience that the price on the menu covers everything, just encourages the perception that the tip is just an added burden. Factor that in for every meal you eat for 3 weeks, and the resentment can add up! But then, that’s the joy of travel, huh…
Most of the links you provided didn’t work for me, but I did notice that very few of them were actually Australian domains or in any way affiliated with Australian tourist centres. Perhaps this would be better:
Western Australia - Tourism Board
**“Tipping is generally not expected within Australia, **however it is acceptable to leave a small amount should you feel you have received exceptional service.”
South Australia - Tourism Board
**“Tipping is not widespread in Australia, **but if you receive great service in a restaurant the recommended tip is 10 per cent of the bill.”
Walkabout.com.au (not a tourist bureau)
**"Tipping is not standard practice in Australia. **You may wish to add an extra 10% to the bill at a restaurant if you are impressed with the service but it is not mandatory. "
Victoria - Tourism Bureau
"Tipping is not a general custom in Australia, and is at your discretion."
New South Wales - Tourism Bureau
I took this from their guide specifically for Americans, I might add. It’s not on the ‘Australian visitors’ part of the site because we wouldn’t even ask the question.
“**Tipping - There is no obligation to tip. **Australians believe in rewarding good service, so you can tip when you feel you’ve received good service!”
The rest of the states didn’t mention tipping as far as I could tell on a cursory search. I didn’t feel inclined to put too much effort into it though, to be honest, because it seems very silly to have to prove that we don’t tip. I accept that it’s the status quo in the US, after all. I don’t require a list of authorised cites to make me accept that things are different there. The fact that the Aussies on this board have said it’s not the norm for us should be sufficient.
(I may not *like *the tipping situation in the US, but I certainly accept that it’s real and will very definitely be tipping 15-20% everywhere I go. If anything, I’ll probably tip when I’m not supposed to, and make a total ass of myself at McDonald’s or something.)
If you really can’t believe what we’re telling you, I cordially invite you to hop a plane, visit Australia yourself, enjoy our wonderful food and wine, and NOT leave a tip. Come marvel at the complete lack of ‘shock, horror’ that this causes. Then, perhaps, you will believe. (But come quickly, before our PM completes his plan to turn us into an American state.)
I think the most telling thing about all the quotes above is that they start out the same way: it’s not the norm. It seems the travel bureaus are just compensating for the fact that you - as someone who is used to the tipping culture - may feel weird if you don’t leave a tip. In that instance, 10% is suggested. But in every single case the first words are a variation on ‘it’s not our practice’.
But honestly, most people would probably much prefer it if you were just nice to them and then complimented them to their boss. Getting a good reputation with the boss is far better in the long run, since it’ll generally result in more hours, increased job security, and possibly more promotion opportunities.
I’ll say this again. There is absolutely no stereotype in Canada (that I’ve ever been aware of in my years and years of waitressing) that Australians don’t tip. I’ve served many, many Australians in the years I’ve been doing the job, and I can’t remember one time that they didn’t tip.
I’ll be honest with you, I think your assumption that there is such a stereotype is mainly just wishful thinking. If you assume others are assuming you’re cheap, you can feel more justified in “proving them right”.
Every single Australian tourist I’ve ever served has always been courteous and friendly, so that’s a start, AND they tipped. So if I had an assumption about them before this, it would be that they are courteous people who read the guidebooks before traveling. (Also the men flirt outrageously. )
I think it just all boils down to this. If you’re visiting another country, the COURTEOUS thing to do is read the guidebooks and learn the customs. Then, the COURTEOUS thing to do is abide by said customs. Yes, of course you have a choice to not abide by these customs. Everyone has a choice every day to either be courteous to others or be self-centered. If you wish to be self-centered, no one can stop you from that human right. But know that by not being courteous, and acknowledging and following the customs of a country you are visiting, you ARE being self-centered and unpleasant.
Now you’ve of course also stated that you don’t care if strangers find you unpleasant, which is of course also your choice, I suppose. And basically, if you have no concern for how others feel, nothing anyone says is going to convince you that you should. Right?
Exactly what world are you living in where you imagine that I told you you could or could not do something?
You have a right to be as tight with your own hard-earned dollar as you please, I never said anything to the contrary.
The only reality in which that constitutes me telling you what you can or can not do, is if you are under some legal requirement I am unaware of to keep me far from the opinion that it would be odious to navigate the end of a restaurant meal with you.
If you think your right to free speech includes the right to the expectation that everyone love you for your opinion, I’m sorry to burst that bubble for ya.