Are you a racist? Warning signs

If - and I stress if - one particular race is proven to have a higher average IQ than another race, then there would be nothing inherently racist about conveying that fact.
Just like some races are more prone to lupus or certain cancers than others.

Just like some races have blue eyes and others don’t.

Just like some races grow taller or shorter on average than others.

Just like some races have blonde hair and others don’t.

To suppress such facts would be to suppress the truth. It would be unscientific.

I would agree that if it was found that there is a genetic determinant to intelligence then it would be science. But no such genetic determinant has ever been found.

What’s happening is some people are starting with the assumption that some races are inherently less intelligent than others and then theorizing that a genetic determinant must exist to support this opinion. That’s not science.

A lot of people have also fallen into the trap of devising intelligence tests, which are riddled with unconscious biases and hidden assumptions. Many of these people have been perfectly good, socially conscious, upright, moral people, who have simply been blind to the faults and failures in their scientific methods.

To parallel iiandyiiii, such persons may not be racist, but their methods are or were.

Which races (not ethnicities or smaller population groups) would those be? Care to give examples?

Which races (not ethnicities or smaller population groups) would those be? Care to give examples?

Which races (not ethnicities or smaller population groups) would those be? Care to give examples?

Which races (not ethnicities or smaller population groups) would those be? Care to give examples?

Like the scientific fact that “race” is not a biological reality? That fact?

I don’t draw the distinction. If you use racist methods, or you make racist statements, you’re a racist. You may be an ignorant one, but you’re a racist, nonetheless.

Unlike Chief Pedant, who has been shown many times how the “scientific” work at the heart of “race realism”, like Rushton et al, is outright fraudulent, but doesn’t seem to care. That’s just racist, no ignorance get-out clause attached. Who gives a shit if he then turns around and supports AA?

Since this is the Pit, it’s convenient to fling epithets and babble nonsense, but I think this particular statement of yours is at the heart of your confusion, and so let me step in and help just a bit…

For a simple way to think about the issue, see see here.

For a practical application of the fact that gene pools differ even by Self Identified Race/Ehtnicity, see [url=http://genomebiology.com/2002/3/7/comment/2007] here.

“Race” is just one more way to lump. It’s not an especially accurate way, but then we could say that about any lumping. However when we talk about “group” averages, that’s a lump.

So, for example, the “black” race has, on average, more individuals with SS hemoglobin than the “asian” race even if both lumps are ill-defined genetically and even if some populations of “asians” might have a higher incidence of SS Hb than some populations of “blacks.” Ditto with thousands upon thousands of gene variants, many of which are almost completely unrepresented within one “race” category or another.

Gene variants do cluster by race, for reasons of human migration patterns throughout the last few hundred thousand years.

I’d be all good with getting rid of “race.” But the problem we would be left with here in the US is how to drive good social policy when there are such markedly different performance outcomes that clump by self-identified “race.”

As a medical educator, I want to get blacks into medical school and higher education. But on the performance evaluations required for admission, blacks from well-educated parents and wealthy backgrounds still woefully underscore their equally privileged peers, and they can’t even outscore their white and asian counterparts from poverty stricken and uneducated families. Yet the best black students come from these privileged backgrounds, and I want the best students. So I have to support a race-based affirmative action privilege to admit the highest scoring black students.

We should be careful flinging around too carelessly the idea that mother nature has wired all of us the same, even at the crude grouping level of “race.” If we accept that unconditionally, then we will decide that only background privilege separates our ability to succeed, and the consequence of that will be the elimination of race-based set aside here in the US.

When we get rid of race-alone preferences, blacks will have to compete based solely on socioeconomic background, and every single study ever done shows that within the same SES strata, blacks are at the academic bottom (with asians on the top).

Clinging to the idea that “race” has no genetic basis is the greatest threat to the black middle class in the USA. For example, without substantial race-based consideration for medical school admission scores, we would have almost no black physicians in the US even if we continued to adjust admission preferences for socioeconomic background privileges.

Underneath my surly and “racist” posts here on the Dope lies a deep concern that we create as great an opportunity as possible for every group to have a chance of success. We are able to find ways to get women into traditionally male pursuits without pretending they are genetically identical. We have found ways to bring the mentally and physically challenged into mainstream society without pretending that they are genetically identical. And there is no moral a priori requirement to pretend–against every scientific study–that genesets are equivalent at a “race” level.

You sure have a strange way of going about it, considering that most people who agree with you that black people are genetically less intelligent on average very strongly oppose affirmative action and similar policies, and most people who support affirmative action and similar policies strongly consider such opinions as ‘racist’ opinions.

It strikes me as weird to try to make sure people are aware black people are real real dumb and then say “Oh, but I think we should help the poor dears!”

Imagine a campaign for better treatment of people with Down that hinges on convincing the public that people with Down are really super stupid.

IOW, it’s a bullshit rationalization of a mean little racist impulse.

Usually it doesn’t end up with actual help.

The next step of the argument is “We need to ensure equal opportunities,” which is another way of saying, "We’re not going to do anything except pretend that racism no longer exists and that past racism has no current impact on people.

What if one is using ethnicity or smaller population groups as the definition of “race?” It may not be exactly correct in technical terms, but some people refer to such groups as Hopi or Ainu as “races.”

That’s a use of the term, but not the sense the racists use it. That’s “race” = “ethnicity”, which is just fine.

“Simple” is right. Not in the “uncomplicated” sense, but in the “mentally retarded” one. Seriously, you link to a page (Looks like a blog, in no way any kind of academic journal. Not your own, is it? That would be too brazilian of you.) that purports to be all about genetics and last common ancestor and all this other supposedly scientific stuff, and then reduces it to “Africans have curly hair and dark skin” like those are actual genetic markers - ignoring, oh, Melanesians and Andamese and Aborigines, who have, if anything, more genetic separation from Sub-saharan Africans than Europeans (Andamese, in particular, are by their DNA the most distant from African anywhere on the planet, biologically) yet have ** the same physical features **of “curly hair, thick lips, dark skin” your blog post harps on about.

And that’s the level of science the racists use, everybody. “I know a Black by how they look, and damn the DNA”

But you keep fucking that (White) chicken, Pedant.

In case anyone thinks this is a mischaracterization, this is what Pedant’s links says (my emphasis):
But when you see that a person’s hair is curly, his lips are thick, his skin is dark, his bone, cranial and dental structure is like most other blacks, and so on, so forth for hundreds and even thousands of different qualities, you realize that the person can only be someone of African descent. You know this just by looking at a person.

Also notice the appeal to that lovely Victorian eugenicist’s tool, craniometrics - still beloved by racist law enforcement across the US. Well, fuck craniometrics. Fuck it in its tight white ass.

Woopsie…did you decide to pretend the other article I gave you didn’t exist?

Were you hoping your clever and insightful use of vulgarity would distract any reader from looking at this issue objectively?

Perhaps you were hoping that throwing “craniometrics” around as a pejorative would work the same way throwing “racist” around works to obfuscate the answer to this problem:

  1. Genes drive abilities
  2. Genes cluster within even self-identified race/ethnicities because of historic human migration patterns
  3. Gene frequencies for gene variants differ even at the “race” level
  4. Therefore average outcomes for various skillsets vary even at the self identified race grouping level

The stupidity of your simpleton statements around how these racists decide genetic clustering by looking at a person is typical for those who want to reassure themselves that race-based genetically driven differences are bullshit, but from a science perspective it doesn’t even reach a fourth-grade level of understanding.

Let me suggest you actually look at the literature if you want to understand the arguments and science involved. If you just want to reassure yourself every race is equal genetically, go get your education from other nitwits on this board spouting the same tiresome undereducated crap and using the same broad “racist racist racist” epithet to drown out any real understanding.

On the other hand, should you want to understand gene clustering better, there are thousands upon thousands of science articles looking at average physiological differences even when so broad a category as “race” is used for lumping. The finer a population is defined, the more consistent differences there are, but “race” actually clusters in a very consistent pattern even when self-defined, for large enough groups studied.

That’s why it’s highly unlikely asians will be dominating the 100 meter in Olympics. It will never be their genetic turn even when it becomes their cultural turn.

It doesn’t sound like you are interested in science articles because it’s just so much easier to fling shit at a “blog post” but here is one for anyone else looking on. This article, by Eric Wang et al, on the “Global landscape of recent inferred Darwinian selection for Hom sapiens” finds that 1,800 genes representing themes of “host pathogen interaction, reproduction, DNA metabolism and neuronal function” were clustered by SIRE group (in this study, European Americans, African Americans and Han Chinese). The analysis looked at this disparate over-representation and came to the conclusion that these genes were positively selected and not simply the result of a population bottleneck (for example). That positive (Darwinian) selection means that these 1800 genes probably have some competetive advantage driving their over representation. In other words, it’s not just that genes cluster by race (and you’ll find plenty of studies showing that); it’s that average gene differences are for genes driving real functions, and those functions are different enough because of the gene variants that they are positively selected for. They are real differences, not just unimportant genetic SNP variations.

But if you just prefer to put your brain up your ass and shout “racist white chicken fucker” instead of providing any debate of substance, have at it. The Pit gives even the most incompetent, shrill, vulgar and uninformed poster the opportunity to screech instead of understand.

I believe the approach to people with Down syndrome is less about convincing the public they are really super stupid and instead finding ways to accommodate them as wholly as possible even if their average intellectual capacity is diminished from other groups.

Out of curiousity, do you consider yourself well-read on the science literature regarding physiologic differences among race groupings?

One place to start understanding the “racism” debate would be there.

It is commonly accepted, for example, by any medical laboratory in the United States that the reference range for creatine kinase in males is different by race-based group.

Is it the case in your construct that:

  1. These are racist articles

or

  1. Mother nature has tweaked only genes that affect superficial functions such as appearance and certain physiologic functions such as creatine kinase production, but she would never never never touch physiologic functions such as how muscles or brains work because no way is mother nature a racist. No way.

The first is unlikely.
The second is just kind of pitifully naive.

Oh, for fuck’s sake. Are we really going to beat this dead horse yet again? You idiots have had your asses handed to you SO MANY times. I just can’t even.

And this is it. ‘Races might differ in non-superficial ways’, therefore black people are inherently genetically less intelligent. ‘Races might differ in non-superficial ways’, therefore the racial attitudes of the most evil people in history from the last few centuries just happen to be correct. It doesn’t matter that we know virtually nothing about the genetics of intelligence (and most importantly – absolutely nothing at all about which genes are responsible for intelligence)… if black people might be dumber, they are dumber. It doesn’t matter that IQ test scores have varied extremely widely over time, such that modern people (including black people) score significantly higher than people in past decades. It doesn’t matter that there is much about societal discrimination that we don’t fully understand.

If black people might be dumber, they are dumber. You’ve made up your mind, and without any genes at all. Zero genes, and you ‘know’ that they’re dumber because of genes.

I don’t know how that kind of mind works… maybe I don’t have the genetic aptitude for it.

ChiefPedant have you read this, from Ron Unz a couple months ago?

There are always people who will resist truth that offends them.

There are always people who call unsupported nonsense “truth” and use it to oppress, to divide, and to enrich themselves.