Are you a racist? Warning signs

It’s not my theory, it’s a fact.

The Apartheid government grouped people on cultural and historic lines, they didn’t cluster people based on appearance except in ambiguous edge cases. And even then they used cartoonish tests that were only specific to the local populations and had fuck all to do with genes (no-one with a jewfro would pass that test, never mind the completely non-African Australian natives)

You can try argument by assertion if you like, but I’ve got some Andamese who say you’re full of shit. “Races” cluster by appearance only if you define “dark, lippy and curly” as a race. Which I suppose is what you do, if your cites are to be believed. But that’s hardly a scientific classification, now is it?

But by all means, tell me more about how the regime that classified Taiwanese as “White”, Mainland Chinese as “Coloured”, Japanese as “White”, Indonesians as “Coloured” , Filipinos as “Black”, Koreans as “White”, Pakistanis as “Coloured” and only Indians as “Asian” had anything to do with science in their approach to grouping.

What’s next? Going to parade phrenology as a cutting-edge scientific classification system?

So which “appearance types” are those, then? It’s clearly not dark, with curly hair. Unless your definition of “cluster” is as fucked-up as your grasp of genetic separation.

Wait, I know, it’s blonde hair and blue eyes as a combo, isn’t it? That combo is a perennial favourite with … you people. I wonder why?

Cite them, then.

Or be shown for the one-sided racist-cheerleading liar you are, Mr. “Oh, I don’t take sides! I’m just standing up for the little guy!”

I don’t agree with those conclusions. But I don’t think they’re tremendously over the top by comparison with - for example - your claim that as long as you have not identified a specific gene that correlates with intelligence and varies by “race”, that there is “no evidence” (as opposed to inconclusive evidence) that intelligence varies by “race”. And so on.

I don’t know, you tell me.

I’ve commented on some specific issues here. E.g. some guy tried to prove that intelligence couldn’t vary by race because the genetic variation by race between groups of humans is less than that of chimpanzies. This is a silly argument but few people would point that out, mostly being allied with the other side of the debate, so I noted it. And so on for other issues.

To be honest, I’ve not noticed this. I assume you mean (as above in your reference to post #533) the notion that you believe that all “races” are genetically equivalent. I imagine there may be some confusion between the many people on the same side of the issue presenting a united front, but if not then he’s being dishonest too.

I don’t know that these are irrelevant, being that they’re central to his case and a lot of posters have either downplayed or outright denied them.

My first reaction was to dig some up, but I’m not interested in defending myself against this type of charge.

If someone else is genuinely interested, I’ll hunt some down.

No I didn’t. That is a lie. You’ll need to find another cite because this is bullshit.

I didn’t try to prove anything. I simply cited a statistic and asked a question, I neither made an assertion, nor attempted to provide proof of anything.

I simply wondered why some people spend so much time and energy focusing on the differences in a population that is so similar genetically. I wondered what it says about those that so desperately need to find these differences to set themselves apart from others.

Read my original post again, and tell me what assertion I made. It was apparently a very uncomfortable question for some to have asked of them, but that’s all it was. You are mischaracterizing what I said and hiding it behind this ‘some guy said’ condescending crap because you have no actual cite to back up your claim. You’ll have to do better than that.

I didn’t see any questions. CP said that the “races” differ in intelligence, and your response to this was:

My interpretation of that was that you were casting doubt on the ability of the 0.1% difference to create the difference in intelligence that CP was attributing to genetics.

If I misunderstood you then I apologize (& for my earlier remarks as well) but I think my interpretation is the most straightforward reading of your post.

One-sided racist-cheerleading liar it is, then. No surprises there.

No, I was simply wondering why the intense focus for some on the genetic difference among humans, when its such a small amount of difference. Humans are far more similar than we are different across the board, yet some focus so intently on those differences, and I simply wonder why, that’s all. I was not trying to present scientific proof of anything or make any scientific argument on the subject.

My original post may not directly be written in the form of a question, but it’s purpose was to raise the question in the minds of those who focus so intently on this difference. Why is it so important to them to be able to separate themselves from others from different backgrounds and ethnicities when we’re all 99.9% alike? It was more philosophical than anything else.

OK

Well again, if that’s what you meant, then I misunderstood you and I retract and apologize for my earlier comments.

That said, the answer to your question is that, as CP observed, very small differences in DNA can create pretty big differences in actual outcome. So as long as the differences in outcome are significant enough to be relevant, then the possibility that these might be the result of genetic differences becomes relevant as well.

[FWIW, I personally don’t think there’s much to be gained by focusing on such matters altogether, and I’m not the guy who keeps bringing up the subject. That said, I’m also not a fan of using disparate outcomes as prima facie evidence of discrimination requiring corrective measures either, so there’s that too.]

Fair enough. I appreciate that, and being the pit, I’ll retract any especially inflammatory remarks I may have tossed in your direction during this exchange as well. Misunderstandings don’t necessarily have to lead to full on arguments, even in the pit.

I’ve said no genetic evidence. But how is the evidence for a conclusion about genes “inconclusive” rather than (mostly) “nonexistent” if we know nothing about the genes in question (in this case, black people’s genes for intelligence)?

He’s certainly misrepresented my argument many, many times, despite my attempts to correct him. He constantly makes claims about what I believe that are false.

But they’re irrelevant to any case about the genes for intelligence among black people. Do you disagree?

Like who?

To be honest, it certainly seems like you’re looking at CP’s posts in a favorable light, and overlooking his many, many errors, while going through his opponents’ posts with a fine tooth comb, looking for anything that it might be possible to interpret negatively.

And, at least with what you’ve said about my posts, you continue to walk it back – maybe this is a sign that you’re interpreting these posts with some biases that you’re unaware of?

FP, you’ve admitted you interpreted my mockery of CP’s ‘cockroach’ statement wrongly. And you’ve interpreted Airbeck’s argument wrongly. So far, it seems that every time you’re challenged on these criticisms, you back down. Maybe your interpretation is just as problematic, or more so, as many of these arguments your criticizing.

Straightforward and simple question: Are we to believe that all races and ethnicities have equal average IQ?

Yes?

No?

The test results show wide variation in IQ scores. But that’s not what’s being debated here. I’m refuting the claim that the evidence shows that black people have inferior genes for intelligence, on average. I refute this chiefly because we have pretty much zero data about the genes for intelligence among black people. I also assert that such a claim about the genes of black people is a racist claim.

I don’t think you’ve always used the term “genetic evidence” and even if you did, that itself is a red herring. If I see the ground it wet outside that’s evidence that it may have rained, even if I’ve not seen it raining and even if I can’t rule out the possibility that the sprinkler was on. And so on.

I’ve actually looked around a bit and you appear to be correct about this. From what I can tell you’ve been pretty consistent in saying that there could be genetic variations between groups but that there’s no evidence for it. So I agree with you that CP is distorting your position WRT this matter.

Yes, I disagree. Because they’re a necessary component of any genetic variation theory.

There’s been an enormous amount of material posted on this subject here, but here’s one example

The real truth is that I don’t know for sure. Sometimes people offer reinterpretations of their words and you can look back and see that these are clearly bogus and they’re just weaseling and sometimes you can’t tell. In these cases, I agree that it’s possible that you meant what you now say so I’m not going to keep arguing my case. But I’m not at the point of making any sort of deductions from the fact that I misinterpreted your words incorrectly. It’s also possible that you’re the one walking back your words :slight_smile:

That said, it’s very difficult for any person to conclusively rule out the possibility that they may be biased about things, because their bias might be influencing this judgment as well. So who knows. (And while we’re at it, maybe the people who are biased are less likely to back down, not more. You never know. :))

In this case, I don’t see how it’s reasonable at all to make claims about the genetics for intelligence of black people when we know so little about the genes for intelligence among black people.

Thank you. I look forward to seeing you criticize CP the next time he does this.

It’s irrelevant to my refutation of his claims, yet he continues to bring it up.

You appear to be arguing either that:

  1. Blacks as a group do not have a “typical” appearance that–on average–creates a perception on the part of others that they are “black.” If that’s what you are arguing, make sure you aren’t one of those people who thinks blacks are treated differently just because the observer thinks they “look” black. But a lot of racist history would disagree with you.

or

  1. There aren’t gene clusters driving appearance differences among self-identified race groups. If that’s what you are arguing, I don’t think you have the intellectual capacity to understand genes and clustering.

The post to which you link has this introductory comment:
"Right now, there’s no evidence even that intelligence has a genetic component, to the best of my knowledge. No gene has been identified that marks for any influence on intelligence, with the exception of serious mental illnesses or disabilities, and we’re not discussing those to this point in the thread. "

This is really one of the stupidest and most ignorant comments I’ve seen. The scientific literature has long accepted that intelligence has a very high hereditary component. (Genes). I’ve already posted here in this lame thread a cite for one of the genes governing gray matter thickness, linked to intelligence. A single C for T substitution in HMGA2 has been linked to a 2% difference in intelligence. I posted in this thread a nice Princeton review by Gray and Thompson on some of the genes related to brain function.

But in general, even a casual lay reading of the literature shows it is rife with papers demonstrating the importance of genes in every area of biology. The idea–even without specific examples–that brain function would somehow be exempted from functions such as muscle power, bone density, 0xygen exchange, toxin handling and so on is just pollyannish wishful thinking that mother nature has wired us all the same.

It takes more than the three synapses iiandyiiii has to process the concepts, and given his recent foray into confusing what a cockroach is, I’m not that interested in patiently explaining to him yet again what the basic problem is. But it’s actually quite simple.

  1. Almost any large human population grouping–including self identified races–has any number of observed outcome differences that follow a very consistent pattern across all systems
  2. Any number of studies show genes clustering by populations, including self-identified race groups
  3. Every anthropologist in the world accepts a basic tenet of migratory patterns that isolates human populations to a substantial enough extent that genetic clustering for descendant populations is not only likely, but inevitable
  4. Physiologic differences, appearance differences and disease differences from abnormal genes all support the idea that gene frequencies differ at the level of self-identified race groupings
  5. Many studies, including the one by Wang that I cited earlier, suggest genes that cluster have undergone Darwinian selection–that is, they were positively selected for, and this is strong support for the idea that genes differ in substantial ways and not just trivial ways.
  6. As additional examples, MCPH1 variants and CDK5RAP2 variants have been shown to be linked with brain size and structure, and the haplogroup D variant of MCPH1 is so penetrated in non-african populations that anything but positive selection seems highly unlikely.
  7. Given the introgression of Neandertal genes into post-african migratory groups, it isn’t even accurate to pretend we all got our genes from 200,000 years ago; that evidence pushes non-sub-saharan group gene pools back another few hundred thousand years, in contrast with modern sub-saharans.

All this and much much more makes it a non-credible hypothesis that “races” share the same genes, or that the disparate genes among those races have not evolved in the tens of thousands of years since an L0-L1 post-africa split…

Every study that comes out about genes and intelligence and brain function simply adds one more nail to the egalitarian idea that all groups are the same. There’s not a parallel anywhere in nature that says they should be, and the idea that humans somehow are exempted from the laws of nature is a backward Creationist hope which is dying in the face of modern gene study.

And of course, at a practical level, the inequalities in outcome persist stubbornly, always showing the same pattern across every system…

Were it not for the flinging around of “racist” and “eugenics” and the drivel from those of iiandyiiii’s ilk, we would have long since moved beyond pretending that races are biologically equal, on average, even for brain function.

You have continued with your mantra that there is “zero evidence” for genes as a substantive reason for observed intelligence outcomes among race-based groups.

Controversial? Maybe, and certainly so, politically.

Zero evidence? You need a few more neurons, or at least more synapses for the two or three you have.

It should be noted that that poster later backed off that assertion. Though there were others who have said things along the same lines (honesty in particular springs to mind).

Notwithstanding all this, it does appear correct that iiandyii accepts that there are genetic differences between populations. For example, he would presumably agree with the first five items in your previous post.

Zero evidence that black people have inferior genes for intelligence? Yep. Zero (or near zero) data about black people’s genes for intelligence.

And rejected by all major scientific journals and organizations (again, I’m talking about your claims about the genes for intelligence among black people).

Zero evidence about the genes of black people for intelligence, which you’ve admitted – you don’t know which genes are involved in intelligence for black people…