Why, from every publication of academic scores I’ve ever seen with adjustments for SES.
Not to mention any number of real-world applications to medical school…
Do you have some cites with academic scores suggesting black students are able to compete?
Recall the earlier cite I gave you from the JBHE saying that, because of the low admission scores, without a race-based preference, not a single black candidate would be accepted to one of the better medical schools. Not one.
Mull over that for a bit.
Or, alternatively, post some data. (But please try not to confuse poor GIGAbuffoon, who has trouble digesting papers. So I’m talking about cites for actual academic scores; not some sort of statistical “prediction.”)
Do tell, GIGAbluffer–you have some cites which show actual, quanitified, academic skillset results (not something subjective, like grades, but something quantifiable across systems…) that agree with your egalitarian position for the broad grouping of self-identified races?
Cough 'em up! Stop hoarding! Academicians have been starving for them, along with Creationists and other types who think we are all one big happy gene pool, unevolved, and of too-recent origin for migration patterns to have any meaning.
And don’t get confused by clever wordsmithing again. The English; she is a very easy language to use for manipulation.
by Marley23, the one who bans (truth?)
**Please tell me you’re not in a position to hire people.
**
Better me than those opposed to race-based preferences, which folks like iiandyiiii and GIGAbabble are about to kill off by insisting the only problem for academic performance differentials is nurturing. Without a good disparate nurturing story, the very best black candidates for educational admissions and jobs are toast, since their quantifiable credentials such as test scores or job performance scores are always lower, as a group average.
Ricci v deStefano would be helpful background for you here, Marley23…
The problem with the Chief is that he can not comprehend is that it was mulled about already, and he is is still a dummy if he thinks I was the only one that can not “digest” it, he is still trying to make his Serengeti strategy work.
The Serengeti Strategy is so beloved of disinformers and deniers. They try to isolate one individual from a very large herd.
Problem is that since there is no disagreement with others on my side his insults and strategy of attempting to isolate me is even more pathetic.
The problem with being a racist, is that you only see race-based solutions to everything. So you can only conceive of race-based AA, and don’t see other groups (like, say, socieeconomic ones) as equally valid ways to group people.
Nope, it’s obvious that for Chief, race’s the only way to categorize groups of people.
Gender, age, sure, I guess he’s OK with those forms of AA too. But race supersedes nationality or wealth for him, as is clear from his incredulity that non-race-based AA could exist. He’s made it clear he’s not a grey-area kind of guy.
Your assertions are far, far more likely to kill off AA than mine. Historically, when America accepted the assertion that black people were intellectually inferior, black people suffered greatly for it.
I am amused at the various efforts to libel me or contort my position instead of simply presenting data which support an opposing view.
SES groupings will prevent blacks from participating in our society, and substantially hurt the black middle class. Read the thread above to understand why, and what the data shows.
Without race-alone preference, in every SES tier blacks will still be at the bottom. Whether it is the top SES tier or the bottom SES tier, the average academic performance of blacks as a self-identified group will be far lower than whites and asians. It will be so below white and asian peers for that SES tier that even the highest SES blacks will be barely on par with the lowest SES whites and asians.
I have expressed elsewhere that there it’s silly to lump an individual into any group. At a social policy level, the catch-22 is that, without that grouping, we will not be able to drive diversity for race. Until we are more homogenized genetically, I think it’s a good idea to be able to look around and see blacks, whites and asians all participating at all levels of society.
You will not be able to get there with SES groupings. Start with the sobering JBHE article I referenced above for business, law and medical school applicants.
What the JBHE article I referenced said exactly was this: “The mean total college grade point average for black applicants to medical school in 2005 was 3.18. For whites, the average GPA was 3.54. If we examine grades in the all-important science courses, the mean black GPA was 2.99. For whites, the figure is 3.44. If these institutions were to choose their students solely on test scores and college grades, it is clear that in the intense competition for places at medical schools in the United States, African Americans would be at a severe disadvantage in relation to the highest scoring whites. Under these circumstances no blacks would be admitted to the nation’s most selective schools of medicine.” (Underlining by CP for emphasis)
As I have pointed out with other cites, adjusting for SES tiers does not change anything. At every SES tier adjustment, the rank order remains the same, with a wide gap between black and white/asian SES-normalized scoring.
This does not mean blacks never succeed, although as a group average , the data show they never have the highest scores. Never, at least not in any of the data I’ve seen, and I’ve seen a lot. That pattern is pretty damn stubbornly persistent.
The problem is that without race-alone AA, blacks would never get admitted in large enough numbers to drive any diversity. Think of Ricci deStefano, where a group of firefighters (?) are given the same exam for advancement; the exact same content; the exact same current jobs; the exact same time to study for an exam that is carefully vetted for fairness by an independent firm. Multiply that by thousands of times for business, blue collar jobs, academia and you will begin to see the problem. It isn’t that the black applicant won’t make the finest Fire Chief there has ever been, for non-academic reasons (after all, a written exam to demonstrate mastery of material is a fairly narrow skillset). It’s that he won’t get advanced in the first place, because at every tier along the way the academic skillset for test taking comes up with the same basic rank order, on average.
As the same JBHE article puts it, *“…it must be noted here that blacks admitted to our graduate and professional schools under affirmative action programs tend nevertheless to be qualified students entirely capable of handling the rigorous curriculum at these institutions.”
*
The problem is getting those very able students a position at the table in the first place, and to do that we have to recognize that nothing except race-based preference will do it, because however qualified in general, blacks as a group average never–never–perform on par with whites or asians who have been given similar opportunity.
That average result is driven by the stark reality that average gene pools are different. Yada yada yada…see above thread. No institution or system anywhere in the world has ever had a different pattern. We are not all wired alike, and pretending that we can somehow nurture a different average would be like pretending that we could nurture whites and asians back into a position of prominence for sprinting events at the 2032 Olympics.
So you acknowledge you were wrong when you said “cannot” and “never”.
Stuff snipped about AA that’s irrelevent to this discussion (plus the fact that I support AA).
Funny thing about this statement is that it supports the assertion that black students are not, in fact, less intelligent, less capable, and less in posession of equal ‘skillsets’, even if they have lower test scores on average.
This statement is in direct contradiction from the previous one. If black students with lower test scores are just as able to handle “the rigorous curriculum at these institutions”, then it seems like the problem is with the tests and admissions themselves, not with the black students.
Blah blah blah… No. The evidence runs counter to this assertion.
There is no way you could possibly know this. Do you have the test scores on hand for civil administrators in ancient Nubia? The Mali Empire? The various Chadian dynasties? No? Then perhaps you should shut the fuck up with the ridiculous “No institution or system anywhere in the world has ever…” bullshit.
Well; we’ll see. Several court cases should be telling you where sentiment is going, and U Texas Fisher is about to go back to SCOTUS.
U Texas, in an attempt to hold on to their better black applicants, wants to be able to use a race-alone preference for blacks so they can accept black applicants with privileged backgrounds but who have crappier academic criteria. Those are their best black applicants and they need them so that the 10% high school rule does not produce only weak black candidates who cluster in weak courses at U Texas.
It becomes a tough sell for U Texas because the black applicants they want a race-alone preference for are not underprivileged. So U Texas has to argue they bring “diversity” when “diversity” means race and not class. And “race” is falling out of favor as a grouping. (See above thread, and Dribble’s criticisms. )
Support for race-based AA will die when we mock the idea that races are differently enabled, and support an egalitarian ideal that says we are all the same (functional) gene pool. When that idea takes hold, there will be very little public support for the notion that the rich black doctor’s kid gets into law school ahead of the poor white welfare kid with better academic performance. And there are plenty of the latter to displace the former.
Good luck with your egalitarian dreams.
I’m out of pocket til the weekend so have fun with your rebuttals.
What the fuck? American history is a real thing that happened in the past. We have lots of records about what society and those in power thought about the intelligence of black people, and the ramifications of that belief and others.
We don’t have to fucking see – we already did.
Unsupported and ahistorical fiction. It’s laughable, even, that these ideas of the past that were responsible for such oppression and brutality would actually be good for black people.
Are you fucking serious? The vast majority of AA supporters do not believe black people have inferior genes for intelligence – among Americans, people who agree with you are far, far less likely to support AA. Benjamin Tillman and his compatriots would not support affirmative action were they alive today.
LOL at your never-ending ‘egalitarian’ straw man bullshit.
I notice you didn’t actually answer the question. (And yes, I’ve banned a few people around here. You’re welcome.) That’d be a minor tragedy at work there: “I don’t know why we can’t fill our jobs with black candidates! They must be genetically inferior” says the guy in charge of hiring who thinks black people are retarded. Ugh.
It’s not libel to point out the biases you willingly cling to, as revealed by your own positions. Like you yourself said, it’s equally possible to group humanity in many different ways. You choose a race grouping. That’s pretty obvious to anyone reading your posts. So sue your typing fingers for libel.
The only acceptable reason to lump people into race groups is to provide race-based protection because of the disparate outcomes among those groups.
When you and your other pards here are able to get those outcomes equivalent, we can get rid of lumping people into self-identified races.
Right now, in the US and elsewhere, if we don’t keep track of races, we cannot ensure fairness of treatment or representation because without race-awareness, outcomes are markedly disparate even within the same socioeconomic status. No blacks at the best medical/law/business schools, and all that.
You think attaining equivalent outcomes among races is do-able. I don’t. You think it’s nurture. I think it’s gene pools. I will not be holding my breath for you to admit I’m right.
But I assure you I could not give a crap about any given individual, and generally treat everyone with the same arrogant, pissy disdain.
(Except for GIGAbumbler, whom I love for his passion and despise for his uneducated belligerance at the same time)
QFT and to show that the Chief is still clueless for thinking I am the only one.
That level of cluelessness (that has been going on for many months when looking at other discussions) is just more evidence of the incompetency the Chief has.
You have grown so desperate that you are attributing your own misquote of me to me, and then accusing me of being wrong for having said it. That’s lame, you cockroach.
Give it up.
No amount of smattering around these various tangents will get your indefensible position off the hook.
)