Are you a Tolkien person or a Lewis person?

Cafe Society
101

Just spotted this. I didn’t get that impression. More of an instance of SDMB Statler-and-Waldorf (now which is Lewis and which is Tolkien?) Syndrome. Wrong, though, wasn’t he?

Just read a letter of CSL’s from 1944 in which he quotes incorrectly from one of his own books!* You could just see old Wallie Hooper having a tizzy-fit on the side, being so fastidious an’ all. Now there’s a loving acolyte for you…

I’m teasing- I’ve corresponded with him on and off since 1987, and he’s always been most helpful when I’ve needed a question answered re Lewis.

  • Same letter, I believe, he calls Tollers a ‘very great man’. He really was a very generous fellow, as he explains to a correspondent that T would have published more stuff but he had so many manuscripts lying around, because he could never finish anything, and would re-write, rather than revise, whenever he came to edit his work for publication.
102

Tha’s probably one of the reasons that I’m a Lewis/Chesterton fan. I love (and hate) the “oh, well, can’t be right all the time!” attitude to editing.

Drat. So the bet wouldn’t’ve paid off.

103

Well, I’m sitting pretty!You confessed to having finished not one but *two * CW books.

104

I remember doing all my work in class as fast as I could so I could pull out LOTR and read a few chapters before we moved on to the next lesson. I would also take the books outside for recess. I have only reread them once since then, and I can (and do) annoyingly recite random trivia whenever the opportunity presents itself.

I tried reading Narnia a couple months later. I read four of the books, at most. I think there was a lion in it, or something.

105

Also a wolf, or an ulf…or something!

I think.

106

Many “zombie threads” lately, as has been remarked on. Having lately happened on this one from a fair few years ago, I’m making so bold as to get on board zombie-wise.

I confess to not being mega- well-read re either of the authors concerned. (First encountered both, at about the same time in my life – early adolescence.) With Tolkien, I’ve read “The Hobbit” and “LOTR”, and some short stories and miscellaneous verse. Not “The Silmarillion”, and probably never will – I’m not that intensely interested, and from what I hear, the work is to a large extent extremely depressing. With Lewis, have read a small handful of specifically Christian (including “Screwtape”), and literary-critical, works ; and I think a couple of the children’s fiction ones – “TLTWATW” for sure, and maybe one other.

For what it’s worth, with my far less than encyclopaedic experience of the two: for me, it is for very sure thumbs-up for JRRT and thumbs-down for CSL. I love Tolkien’s world-building, and the excitement of his story-lines, and his writing style and abilities – IMO with an agreeably light touch – and I delight in his descriptions of the beauties of the natural world. (This stuff not to everybody’s taste – fair enough, boring world if everyone’s likes and dislikes exactly the same, etc.) Being a fairly lowbrow type, I relish the strong and ever-present involvement of the hobbits, with their “firm grasp of life’s basics”: if Tolkien’s works were without the hobbit element, and everything was high drama and heroism / saintliness versus stark evil, I don’t think I’d enjoy them much.

Lewis – I find I dislike his stuff to the point of being tempted to start a Pit thread to slag him off; so I’ll try to keep it fairly brief and measured. Initially: I don’t react well to being badgered into becoming a Christian (and Lewis’s take on Christianity strikes me as being a fairly negative, restrictive, and miserable one) on pain of eternal damnation. It seems to me that Tolkien, bless him, didn’t do that stuff; but just got on with personally walking the Catholic Christian walk, and writing what he wrote, purely for fun to be had by himself and whoever might read it. Plus, in much of what he writes, Lewis seems to me, highly smugly pleased with himself – doing the equivalent re things spiritual / aesthetic / intellectual, of yelling à la Muhammad Ali, “I am the greatest, I am the king, I am the prettiest !” – implied, “and if you don’t think exactly as I do, you are at best to be pitied”.

And I am with Tolkien in disliking Lewis’s heavy-handed, charging-rhinoceros-subtle, allegory of things Christian in the Narnia stories. And I found Lewis’s fiction-writing style, lead-heavy and, again, devoid of subtlety. And the naff / twee names which he gives to some of his characters: Puddleglum the Marshwiggle – the giant Rumblebuffin, and IIRC his pal Thunderbuffin – BLEEEAAAURGHHH !!

(If I’m right, there’s a SDMB participant who uses the posting name Puddleglum – nothing personal, I promise !)

107

If I could have more stories, I’d want them to be Tolkien’s. I’ll probably get more from the estates of both. If I wanted to hang out with them, I’d probably prefer more time with Lewis than Tolkien. Lewis seems more personally engaging.

108

If I may add a late vote to this zombie,Tolkien all the way. I have loved The Hobbit and LOTR since I was a little kid.

I admit I never read the Narnia books, but I read Lewis’ Out of the Silent Planet and his short story The Shoddy Lands and, frankly, the world view and ethics they were pushing thoroughly disgusted me. The Shoddy Lands, in particular, is a horrible piece of deeply snobbish misogyny that left a thoroughly nasty taste in my mouth even when I read it as a teenage boy. Out of the Silent Planet is heavy handed, one sided allegory, with a thumb firmly on the scales, for a world view for which I have almost no sympathy. (I do not mean Christianity per se. I am not a Christian, but there are versions of Christianity I can respect. Lewis’ version is not one of them.). Maybe things a bit less heavy handed in Narnia, I don’t know, but if what I read was remotely representative, Lewis was a thoroughgoing creep.

Ideologically, I probably do not have much common ground with Tolkien either, but his storytelling transcends ideology.

109

I’ve heard this from several people. I personally didn’t notice the Christianity until at least halfway through the final book.

110

My husband never noticed any of the allegory either, and he read Narnia at least twice as a child and then a teen. Course, he was raised by non-religious liberal Dutch parents, and is phenomenally unfamiliar with christianity. I on the other hand knew Aslan was Jesus from the very start of Magician’s Nephew, and sobbed during the sacrifice scene when I read it as a very religious child, and (not ashamed) as an atheist adult watching the newest movie version.

I like narnia as much as I am able through the haze of allegory, I think that screwtape letters are hilarious, and til we have faces is sweet and creepy. That all said, I prefer Tolkien’s reasons for writing, his style and methods of worldbuilding, and his actual writing style. I may have cried over Aslan, but gratuitous heartstring tugging doesn’t a good author make.

Ps - nice zombie.

111

Moving IMHO to Cafe society.

112

Definitely a Tolkien person.

113

Lewis, all the way. Tolkien is cool, but I can take or leave his stuff. C. S. Lewis, on the other hand, I keep coming back to for spiritual refreshment. I read the Narnia Chronicles as a kid and loved them, I read the Perelandra Trilogy as an adult, and loved that, and I’ve reread each of them since. Some of his nonfiction/apologetics is decent (I liked his correspondence with Haldane, and alternately found myself sympathizing with both of them), but in general he was a much better novelist than an essayist.

I’ve also read a few things by Charles Williams. FriarTed What was your opinion of Many Dimensions and War in Heaven? I’ve read those, and loved them, especially the first: the demonic possession scene in ‘War in Heaven’ was one of the most disturbing scenes I’ve read in awhile. I’m planning to try ‘Descent into Hell’ when I get the chance.

114

I used to like both when I was a child, these days I like neither.

Lewis is too preachy and religious and Tolkien is too pro-monarchy with all of his bowing and scraping to Lords and Kings.

It’s not that either are bad writers, but it’s me that has changed as I’ve developed my non religious and political views.

115

Trying to be fair to Lewis where I can, though I hate his output: I gather from biographical-type stuff I’ve read, that this seems a case of what is often observed – people who per their public stance on things may come across as bigots / bullies / tyrants, are frequently much more likeable “in their private and personal capacity”. Lewis seems to have been, personally, a very nice and congenial and genuinely kind guy. Tolkien, I gather, meant very well, but tended to be a bit Sheldon-Cooper-ish.

I’ve not read any of the above; but your words quoted here, very much chime in with my sentiments about Lewis’s writings.

I agree.

I do gather that – as above – many folk have enjoyed the Narnia books and been unaware of, or unaffected by, their Christian content: often through reading and loving them in childhood; or, as with your husband, Lasciel, being very much not on that wavelength. I first came upon them relatively late – aged 13 IIRC – and was already aware of their Christian-allegory content. I have almost always found Christianity pretty repugnant; all told, I was not a hopeful prospect for Narnia fandom.

Thanks !

116

The Second Stone writes:

> If I could have more stories, I’d want them to be Tolkien’s. I’ll probably get more
> from the estates of both.

There’s no way you’re going to get more stories authorized by the Tolkien estate. They’ve made it clear that nobody does authorized sequels to his works. Indeed, they’ve made it clear that Tolkien Enterprises/Middle-earth Enterprises, which for many years now has owned the movie rights to The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (and which is not owned or controlled by the estate), will not get the movie rights to anything else of Tolkien’s. The estate doesn’t want anything published (or filmed) which appears to be Tolkien’s but wasn’t written by Tolkien.

117

The last is a fairly good point. When Tolkien met Ava Gardner in 1964 neither was aware of the fame of the other. Despite Ava having been one of the biggest movie stars in Hollywood whose fame was just fading at that point. I first read this in one of his letters, I found it online:

I know Professor Tolkien was known to be fairly disconnected from the popular and was stunned when he discovered the Hippies had glommed onto his works.

118

Well, I never actually got deep into War In Heaven. That and Places of the Lion are somewhere in my house & I need to find & finish them.

The three I’ve finished are Many Dimensions, The Greater Trumps, and Descent Into Hell.
And that was quite a while ago. I recall liking MD but not loving it. The fate of one of the main characters put me off from loving it. TGT I did love- while a Christian who generally avoids occult practices, I do have a fascination for the art & symbolism of the Tarot. Plus, the scene where CW has fun with the Athanasian Creed as a verbal dance delighted me. I love Sybil Conningsby as a character. DIH was a very well executed portrait of a soul falling into itself forever. It reminded me greatly of CSL’s Great Divorce.

119

I love Tolkein for his story telling, and the depth of his world.

I love Lewis for his story telling as well, very approachable at a young age. It was Narnia and Prydain that got me into fantasy (and Heinlein’s juvies into Sci-Fi).

I also loved Lewis for at least some of his theology. I grew up in a non-religous household (CBD - Christian By Default parents), but surrounded by Bible thumping Evangelicals. In the last Narnia Book:

I read this at a point in my life where dogmatism was tough to deal with. To find a Christian like Lewis making a statement like this was eye-opening to me.

120

I’ve only read Narnia and some of the Screwtape letters, so I’m not sure I love Lewis as much as a I think. But I do know that I’m not a big fan of high fantasy and prefer a more childlike or modern approach to that genre. I’m also not a big fan of hugely built up fantasy worlds, and prefer to only know about worlds through the actions of the main characters.

You’ll probably never see this, but Lewis hated his first name and preferred to go by “Jack.” They make a big deal about that in the intro to the radio dramatized version of the story, when his stepson talks about him.