Are you cissexist?

[Jragon]

@Guinastasia

Ugh. "Everyday Feminism"makes me cringe as a woman and a “somewhat” feminist. They’re the epitome of a solution in search of a problem. It’s just one big Oppression Olympics jerk fest.
(And after watching a good many of Riley Dennis’s videos, I think she’s simply batshit and just wants to lay a guilt trip on anyone who’s ever rejected her for ANY reason)

I’m a pretty leftist transwoman and I can’t even understand how anybody can tolerate Everyday Feminism. It’s completely insufferable and horribly patronizing for the most part. Also, “cissexist” is a dumb term that does not mean what it sounds like it means. I have also never heard it before despite hanging around transpeople talking about trans issues quite a lot? I get the impression this is from one of those internet corners of trans shit I do not go near because it gets a bit daft quite quickly.

That said, Bricker kind of nailed it in his analysis of what it’s saying and I don’t entirely disagree with this particular video. It’s worth examining if you reject women with penises or men with vaginas because of cultural conditioning or just aesthetic preference. It makes things easier for transpeople and broadens your dating pool a little bit if nothing else.

That said, finding certain things unattractive is okay. For instance, personally I’m fine with transdudes, cis dudes, and cis women, but for whatever reason I am not attracted to penises on women. I’m fine with dating transchicks, but I probably couldn’t date a transchick who wasn’t planning on getting bottom surgery at some point, it just does not work for me. (As for nonbinary or intersex people, those both represent such a large spectrum of presentations and physical traits you can’t really say whether you’re attracted to that or not, it’s very case by case).

I also agree that it’s fine to mention if it really comes up, but talking about it loudly can look a bit gauche, if nothing else.

@BigT

The only definition I could give to that term would be if you thought cis gendered people were inferior to trans people. You were sexist against cis people, in other words.

What they apparently mean by the term is something I’ve actually thought a lot about, though. I know that I actually have a revulsion response to a penis, and it is one of two things that takes someone who would otherwise be attractive to me and makes them unattractive. A “feminine” looking guy could be attractive to me if he didn’t have a penis. The other thing is a lower voice. The one that rides the line is hairiness, which can get to be too much, but unlike the others, can be offset.

I can’t tell if you’re equating “feminine looking guy” with “transwoman” here, but that’s not the same thing. I like pretty boys quite a lot, pretty boys are not the same as transchicks. In case you are, transwomen often (but not close to always) take voice feminization lessons which are pretty good, and HRT generally takes care of the hair.

That said, I am working on it, intentionally. Because I don’t want to say I didn’t try. I can’t make myself attracted to penises, I don’t think, but I do think I might be able to ignore them.

Er, that’s fine, you don’t have to force yourself to be okay with penises. It’s just for some people that revulsion isn’t as deep as they think if the person is otherwise feminine, or the revulsion to women with penises is rooted in transphobia more than the penis itself (you see this in bi people sometimes, some are legitimately not interested in certain trait combos, but some are just not okay with transpeople).

And then just men that seem to have a “trans fetish”–though I wonder if calling it that makes trans women feel exploited or not.

Yeah, we call them “tranny chasers” and generally feel kinda demeaned by them and is a large reason a lot of transpeople don’t use online dating sites.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Chronos

For the record, the standard English plural is “penises”, and the standard Latin plural (which is also acceptable in English, if you treat “penis” as a loanword) is “penes”. “Penii”, if it exists, is the Latin plural of “penius”, whatever that means.

Penius. Noun. A word for people who are exceptionally talented in bed. Penii: most of the people involved in the average “Blacked” gangbang video.

@Jragon

Yeah, we call them “tranny chasers” and generally feel kinda demeaned by them and is a large reason a lot of transpeople don’t use online dating sites.

I don’t understand this.

Look. Suppose Bob is a sadomasochistic amputee who has a fetish for fat transgender Asian women. And suppose he happens to live next to Alice, a fat transgender Asian woman who has a fetish for sadomasochistic amputees. They can either both sit alone in their rooms, feeling like approaching the other would be vaguely sinful for reasons they can’t exactly parse. Or they can, as the economists say, derive gains from trade.

I don’t think Ozy objects to Bob and Alice starting a relationship. I just think they object to either of them ever asking the other whether they’d like to start a relationship. If the Relationship Fairy fell out of the sky and magically informed them that they were interested in each other, then it would be totally acceptable. But if one of them has to go and check, then that’s wrong, because it might make one of them feel “objectified”.

But if you lash out in anger any time someone investigates whether they can make a mutually beneficial deal with you, such that fear of this reaction prevents everyone all around the world from ever trying to make mutually beneficial deals with anyone else, then the problem is with you.

I’m generally sexually attracted to transwomen. I’m also generally sexually attracted to women with large breasts, hairless men with swimmer’s physique, women who have the “bimbo” aesthetic, and a very long list of other characteristics, including magical sentient pastel ponies giving me bedroom eyes. Is this demeaning to all parties? What about it is demeaning? I honestly don’t get it. I’d be flattered if someone felt sexually attracted to my physique, and before I get to know you, I have nothing except your physical appearance and immediately obvious qualities to go on. And as Scott says in the above article:

Ohmigod. I just realized my girlfriend doesn’t actually love me for who I am. She just loves all of my characteristics.

So… I guess I’m confused. What’s the problem?

[Jragon]

There’s a subtle difference in generally being attracted to transwomen, and being attracted to the transness as a sole degree. A lot of chasers (or amputee fetishists or whatever) will hit up anybody, no matter how compatible regardless of their other traits, because they fall into their fetish niche. Nobody is complaining about going on a dating site and finding someone cute generally attracted to transpeople. It’s that there’s a lot of gross spam that makes it clear that the only thing they really care about that you’re a Chick With a Dick or a Dude with A Vagina or whatever.

Also the problem with a lot of fetishists don’t get is that, while it varies a lot from transperson to transperson, they’re often turned on and talk incessantly about the very things that gross transpeople out about themselves. My transdude friend is always really creeped out whenever someone is turned on by the fact that he’s gonna look like a dude but still have a vagina and breasts (I mean, he’s gonna get top surgery but people say it anyway), because these are both things he really wishes he didn’t have. Being okay with it is the ideal for a lot of us, but being turned on by it can be offputting to a lot of transpeople because we don’t want the things that we wish we didn’t have brought up and complimented and fixated on so often.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Jragon

There’s a subtle difference in generally being attracted to transwomen, and being attracted to the transness as a sole degree. A lot of chasers (or amputee fetishists or whatever) will hit up anybody, no matter how compatible regardless of their other traits, because they fall into their fetish niche. Nobody is complaining about going on a dating site and finding someone cute generally attracted to transpeople. It’s that there’s a lot of gross spam that makes it clear that the only thing they really care about that you’re a Chick With a Dick or a Dude with A Vagina or whatever.

Also the problem with a lot of fetishists don’t get is that, while it varies a lot from transperson to transperson, they’re often turned on and talk incessantly about the very things that gross transpeople out about themselves. My transdude friend is always really creeped out whenever someone is turned on by the fact that he’s gonna look like a dude but still have a vagina and breasts (I mean, he’s gonna get top surgery but people say it anyway), because these are both things he really wishes he didn’t have. Being okay with it is the ideal for a lot of us, but being turned on by it can be offputting to a lot of transpeople because we don’t want the things that we wish we didn’t have brought up and complimented and fixated on so often.

Thanks for the explanation, that helps clear things up a bit.

[Malleus_Incus_Stapes]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

So… I guess I’m confused. What’s the problem?

It’s like the difference between “You have big breasts and I find that attractive” and “I love big breasts and you happen to be attached to two of them”.

[Guinastasia]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

including magical sentient pastel ponies giving me bedroom eyes.

Uh, waaaaaay TMI there.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Guinastasia

Uh, waaaaaay TMI there.

Twilight Sparkle Best Girl.

[jayjay]

Since the bathroom bill stuff started happening last year, I’ve seen pics of an awful lot of incredibly hot transmen…hot enough that I probably wouldn’t be averse to being physical if I were feeling up to anything physical (which doesn’t happen much anymore).

[Thing_Fish]

@Bricker

I think there’s a bit of strawmanning going on here.

The author (or vlogger, I suppose) is not saying: If you are dating a man and you find out he doesn’t have a penis then it is cissexist or transphobic to decide you don’t want to have sex with him.

The article is simply saying, “If you are dating a man and you find out he doesn’t have a penis and this means you don’t want to have sex with him, I invite you to consider that this reaction may arise from your immersion in a transphobic society.”

In other words, the author argues that at least some of the people who conclude “I have sexual attraction only to women, and by ‘women,’ I mean persons without penises,” are reaching that conclusion only because of society’s pernicious influence in defining women as persons without penises. The author is suggesting that there’s value in examining your own reactions and discerning if your reaction might arise from such cultural programming.

And the author points out that even if your reaction in this area is not purely driven by cultural conditioning, there’s not much value in loudly announcing it. In other words, by your vocal insistence, you’re adding to the problematic societal chorus, even if your individual reaction is inner-derived.

As an analogy, we might imagine a cis-man, straight and white, who does not find himself sexually aroused by people of color. We might reasonably inquire if it’s possible that this preference is the result of the social opprobrium directed at interracial couples, and we might reasonably invite him to consider if this might be so for him.

And even if his reaction is one that has arisen for purely internal reasons having nothing to do with that social pressure, we might observe that there’s little reason for him to loudly trumpet his complete lack of attraction to women of color, because in doing so he’s perpetuating the social clime that was the reason for the question in the first place.

Well spoken,** Bricker.** Thank you for this intelligent and nuanced commentary.

[Darren_Garrison]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Twilight Sparkle Best Girl.

Well, at least you are willing to conciser dating ponies with a horn.

[BigT]

@Jragon

I can’t tell if you’re equating “feminine looking guy” with “transwoman” here, but that’s not the same thing. I like pretty boys quite a lot, pretty boys are not the same as transchicks. In case you are, transwomen often (but not close to always) take voice feminization lessons which are pretty good, and HRT generally takes care of the hair.

Not at all! I’m using that as a way to explain my own attraction. To put it another way, if this was someone who identified entirely as male, but had a higher pitched voice and no penis, I could be just as attracted to him as a woman. So I know it’s not purely that I’m attracted to women (though I am attracted to a lot of feminine stuff.)

When I see trans porn online (as I’ve never dated a trans woman, and female “trans porn” always means with a penis, as, otherwise, why specify?), it’s a completely different story. The issue is that I see both a really hot girl, and then this penis that I’m not attracted to, and it messes with me. The same thing happens when I see penises in porn in general, which is why I tend to watch lesbian and solo porn. Or Japanese porn, where the penis is censored.

So I know there’s something about a penis that causes me issues, and thus, for me at least, it’s not merely a cultural assumption.

Oh, and I’m very, very aware of vocal feminization. It’s why my “I’m trying” paragraph doesn’t mention anything about trying to make myself attracted to male sounding voices–that’s pointless.

It also just fascinates me in general–why some can do it effortlessly, some work really hard on it and get it, and some, no matter how hard they work, still sound like when a male author tries to do a female voice in his audiobooks. And it doesn’t seem to have much to do with the pitch of the original voice (except at the extremes).

And, I don’t want to “cissplain,” but I have noticed one trick to help: accents. Affecting an accent seems to help even men who are just doing female voice acting.

And, once again, I’m rambling, so I’ll shut up now. Just wanted to make it clear what I meant, and that I definitely did not refer to trans women as “feminine looking men.”

[Darren_Garrison]

@BigT

So I know there’s something about a penis that causes me issues

Something there is that doesn’t love a penis.
[RIGHT]–Robert Frost
[/RIGHT]

[Jragon]

@BigT

And, I don’t want to “cissplain,” but I have noticed one trick to help: accents. Affecting an accent seems to help even men who are just doing female voice acting.

Might be a crutch, you don’t really need it. I mean, I sing Alto/Mezzo in choir now.

[JRDelirious]

@Darren_Garrison

Something there is that doesn’t love a penis.
[RIGHT]–Robert Frost
[/RIGHT]

I’d expect the average male is at least warmly fond of his own penis.

[Una_Persson]

Everyday Feminism is sort of all over the map on topics like this. They are the prime example that getting a college student or “respected Twitter user”[what do those words even mean?] to write an expanded Facebook post on a slick website does not equal “journalism.”

And it certainly isn’t “research.”

As a transgender researcher and activist and member of the media, I’m very uncomfortable with pressure on anyone that they must accept certain things about a romantic partner, either extra or missing, else risk be labeled “cissexist” or a “transphobe.” I certainly would never do it nor support it.

[Una_Persson]

@Jragon

I’m a pretty leftist transwoman and I can’t even understand how anybody can tolerate Everyday Feminism. It’s completely insufferable and horribly patronizing for the most part. Also, “cissexist” is a dumb term that does not mean what it sounds like it means. I have also never heard it before despite hanging around transpeople talking about trans issues quite a lot? I get the impression this is from one of those internet corners of trans shit I do not go near because it gets a bit daft quite quickly.

I concur; except I hear “cissexist” quite a lot of the time. Then again, I hear it from the same people who called me a “white supremacist colonizer” because I got henna art on my hand (funny, every single Indian I know (and I know many) thinks my henna is beautiful and tells me I should keep doing it…)