I actually have a certain amount of sympathy for approach 2; I myself haven’t gone to the trouble of determining exactly when sentience begins. I just say ‘screw it’ from the other direction - with the knowledge that abortion (especially when it’s legal) will tend towards happening early in the pregnancy anyway.
Get yourself three 4 Lokos and a tube of Astroglide as you celebrate you driving me from the field in disarray. And be sure to give Fenris a handy-J.
You nailed the sneering obscene suggestion, but did you seriously think he was going to ‘duck out’? Before getting in the last word?
Well, yes, obviously. The whole point of the law is about morality. That’s what I said; the law is our consensus about what’s moral.
You missed the point I made. I didn’t say pro-life people (or pro-choice people) are uncertain about their own view on the subject. I said they’re aware that there are people who disagree with their opinion.
Do you feel the people who are opposed to cannibalism have to spend a lot of time arguing with the people who are in favor of cannibalism?
Actually about four fifths* of the time it’s about what’s convenient for society as a whole. Traffic laws, tax laws, contract laws, zoning laws…
*estimated
This view requires believing that conservatives in the past had an overwhelmingly tolerant position on abortion, that religious views cannot evolve* over time, and that anti-abortion rights activism was borne of cynical manipulation rather than sincerely held views.
I would instead argue that anti-abortion rights folk come by their views honestly (even though often using dishonest means to promote them) and that it does no good to simplistically present the opposition as evil instead of wrong.
*Sorry.
So whaddaya think of that cite in the post you quoted? Lies, damned lies, or statistics?
I think the vast majority of anti-abortion rights folks got told what to think by somebody else.
Which isn’t actually an uncommon way to come upon any opinion or belief.
Nah, but at least this way I don’t waste time making good-faith replies to his set-up questions before he comes back with the sneering obscene suggestion.
Well, as that linked article demonstrates, it’s definitely true that conservatives in the past had a more tolerant position on abortion than they do nowadays, and that much of the shift in conservative attitudes on abortion was prompted by cynical manipulation from leaders seeking a hot-button issue around which to rally their “moral majority” in pursuit of political power.
None of that is incompatible with sincerely held views on the part of anti-abortion conservatives. I’m not arguing that their views on abortion couldn’t evolve; I’m just mentioning the extent to which the shift in their views was, so to speak, directed evolution.
Not seeing anyplace in this thread where I’ve done that, tbh.
That merely amounts to calling them stupid or insane. It’s accusing them of being so stupid they don’t see the logical flaws and inconsistencies in their position and behavior, or so irrational that they are incapable of reason.
And it does plenty of good to look at your opponents as “evil” when they are, since pretending malignant opponents are well meaning but wrong merely means you are blindsided when they act out of malice. It’s the attitude that has led the Democrats to attempt decades of futile compromise with the Republicans, for example. And relevant to this issue, led people to largely look the other way while the so-called pro-life side engages in threats, lies, violence, sexual assault and false imprisonment because looking at them as they actually are leads inevitably to the conclusion that they are not well meaning in any way. When refusing to admit to the evil of an opponent means you have to retreat into a fantasy world, there’s nothing good about that.
And insisting that people are never evil no matter what is extremely simplistic.
This is what I was responding to. I was giving additional examples of things that are not murder merely because they are premeditated acts on a human.
I’m Pro Choice because I believe in the right of a woman to control her own reproductive processes. Women have been controlled and oppressed by men since the dawn of human history. I believe that has to end. I do believe this requires a level of intelligence and education that would probably fit your concept of “smart”.
It’s apparent, at least to me, that anyone who would oppress and even imprison a woman on behalf of a cluster of cells but, yet, would imprison children in cages, let people die for lack of health care, and start wars that kill many people for the sake of profit are either the dumbest fucking assholes in the world or the biggest, most evil hypocrites in the world. You choose.
Moderator Warning
This is an official warning for Pit-style and inappropriate sexual comments in MPSIMS. Take it to the Pit next time.
Moderator Note
This is not the only example in this thread, but let’s stop all of the snipping at other users and focus on the actual topic.
If you have a problem with a user, take it to the Pit.
Moderating: the OP has hopelessly poisoned this thread. Now that he has been suspended I am going to close this. For those of you that thoughtfully answered you can open another uncontaminated thread to continue if you wish.