Are you ready for $10/Gallon gas and long lines at the pump?

The BBQ Pit
141

Wow, you’re really making it hard on yourself, huh?

That’s the most ridiculous straw-man argument I think i’ve ever seen. I saw in no way where anyone said that farmers should move to the city. Nice try. I think the very low farm population ought to stay where it is.

Get it through your head. Change is coming one way or another. We can either do it proactively and bitch and moan the whole way, or wait until it’s too late and suffer massive consequences. We think the Great Depression was bad? I would personally have us sacrifice a few of the luxuries that I don’t even get to enjoy as a city dweller. I made a choice to live here, but you know, it’s not the end of the world to live in a city.

We’ve got a huge problem. The question is whether we take it on in our terms or not. All I do know is that we get nowhere by not being 100 percent honest with ourselves about what we really do need to survive and thrive. And if that means some people will have to move out of the sticks and to the cities I could care less. Maybe some will have to do without SUVs. Don’t tell me you have to have them either, people seemed to get around just fine before. Better that than actually being suddenly forced to live like indians. I don’t give a shit if you live out in the sticks, just don’t make me pay for it.

New York City pays more to the state than it gets back and New York State pays more to the federal government than it gets back so people like you can have nice roads to drive on with your cheap gas. Don’t expect me to want to pay for your 8-lane superhighway because you lack proper social skills.

But no, we’d rather all whine like petulant children instead of letting go of our beloved McMansions and SUVs and Costcos and superstores filled with cheap shit from China. It’s math, people. We can’t avoid it forever.

One day, China’s going to come knocking with all of our debt, and then we’ll really be in a world of hurt, because not only will we be screwed economically, we’ll also be unable to get our economy going because oil will shoot up by ridiculous multiples. Then we’d wish that maybe we had thought of investing in electric cars and Nuclear power before, when we could actually afford it.

It’s a question of national security. Either you get it or you don’t. I’m sorry if your lifestyle isn’t conducive to living in an oil-free 21st century, but things will change whether we want them to or not.

142

Now that makes sense, if we stay dependent on foreign oil and don’t develop technology to use our native energy resources as car fuel. I think finding another source for energy for travel should be our primary goal. It’d have the least drastic effects on society.

143

When did I ever say I opposed change? In this thread I’d been pretty advocative of change. Just not moving into your fricken sardine cans. Why is that so wrong that I’d want it to be plan B?

144

The funny thing is, I’ll wager a lot of white-collar folk who live out in the suburbs and make a 10-mile drive to work every day in their big honkin’ SUVs could more than likely telecommute effectively. I expect telecommuting will gain a lot more acceptance as more and more employees refuse to make the daily commute.

145

Well, official word of warning to people of the future. GAS PRICES WILL GO UP, They will not go down. They may go up to the point that you can no longer pay for it. You might consider planning for that situation now.

Techonology may or may not save us- sometimes it works out, but sometimes it doesn’t even if we want it to really bad. We’ve been looking for an AIDS vaccine forever. So far- nada.

It’s your gamble. Choose wisely.

146

Zoning laws are entirely up to local governments to write and enforce. They reflect what the local population and the political process are willing to accept as land use controls.

Increasingly, New Urbanist design principals are getting traction and land use planners are pushing smaller, denser, more “walkable” communities but to a great many people these are still pretty foreign concepts.

147

Wanna bet? Thirteen months from now.

148

This, exactly. Employers need to be made aware that compensation is not just pay+retirement+insurance anymore. Right now, many white collar companies choose to rely on a workforce that needs to use lots of expensive fuel to get to work every day. As long as they continue to concentrate their operations in those parts of metro areas where there is a lack of affordable housing, they will see more and more employees demand more compensation for their commuting expenses and lost time. An extra 10 hours or $50 per week spent in traffic because you can’t afford to live closer should be a real consideration when looking for work and people should speak up about it. Eventually, HR departments will get the message that monolithic, urban core workplaces are costing them good employees. The solution is decentralization through telecommuting, moving offices out into the community, and discarding the ‘one giant office per city’ model in favor of lots of small offices in the suburbs.

The time for subsidies of alternative fuels has passed. It would have been a really smart thing to do back when nothing could come close to the economics of fossil-derived gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel. We could already have the technology and infrastructure on the shelf, ready for a big build out to a nation of new customers. It’s too late now. The good news is, with fuel prices where they are, subsidies are no longer needed. The research and development can be funded by businesses that are forward thinking. I would go so far as to say that susbsidies would just be corporate welfare to Big Solar (or whatever) instead of Big Oil and Big Corn. Better to spend the public money on mass transit or just spend less to bring the budget back in line.

149

Yeah, and it goes and back all day along the 6 miles that is Main Street. I don’t think that really counts as “viable public transportation” for a vast majority of Buffaloans.

From Wikipedia:
“The system consists of a single, 6.4-mile (10.3 km) long line that runs for most of the length of Main Street, from HSBC Arena downtown to the south campus of the University at Buffalo in the northeast of the city.”

150

The “one giant office per city” model has been long dead. Edge cities are full to the brim with office parks, multi-use sites, campus-style office/warehouse developments, etc. This has been the trend for nearly 30 years.

151

I’m not doubting that you are correct, it’s just that everywhere I’ve lived, the vast majority of offices and other places of mass employment fall within about 5-10 miles of the center of town, while the majority of homes and retail are located from 5-30 miles of the center. Also, I don’t know of any large employer which spreads multiple offices of several hundred workers across a metro area instead of having one big campus or building containing everybody. But it is quite possible I have lived in atypical cities.

152

To anyone born after about 1964:
You’re not a complete idiot if this “crisis” took you by surprise, but there were some clues that this was coming. However, the past 20 years or so have been so incredibly bizarre and exciting that you shouldn’t be faulted if you didn’t focus on this issue.

To anyone born before about 1964:
We all remember the gas lines and the odd/even days, right? So we’ve continued to buy fuel-efficient cars OR made decisions that involved the sure knowledge that gas would become scarce and more expensive, right?

Gas is just coming up to par with inflation, and (no surprise) the number of dinosaurs fermenting underground is finite. But the oil isn’t suddenly disappearing; many people are just finally getting around to thinking about it. We’re going to get fired up about this for a few years, and then we’re going to reach a new equilibrium. Many people will learn the new lesson that energy doesn’t just bubble up from the ground or come streaming down from the sky :). Some will conserve more, and others will decide that they will just spend more. Industries will shift a bit to deal with the higher cost of transportation. In the energy area, some things that were not cost-effective will now be a little more cost-effective, and we will shift our lifestyles. It’s all part of the rich tapestry.

Something I’ve been slow to learn at work is that in many ways, people can only respond to crises, and the most recent crisis tends to block out the other crises. Many people are caught up in the adjustment because we don’t live our lives in the same continuum (I don’t move a half mile closer to work every six months, and I only buy new cars every nine or ten years). So a lot of people are understandably upset in the short term. Right now, we’re seeing dramatic price swings because that’s how our markets work. In the long term, gas is going to be more expensive, but a lot of these short-term gyrations will be averaged out. I’d almost advise that we short sell gas futures, but I never seem to time things correctly.

Also, what’s with the congressional hearings? Honestly, should we be pissed off that businesses are doing things that result in more money coming in? Every one of us who’s employed sells a scarce resource (our time and effort) to someone who pays for that resource. If you have a very scarce resource (such as oil, the ability to transplant hearts, or a great three-point shot), you’re probably going to charge people as much as the market will bear, right?

Sorry to sound snarky, but I worked really late last night; a willingness to do that is one of the scarce resources that I sell. If you go hiking for several days, you’ll probably figure out that energy, food, shelter and safety are very precious. Also, boredom might set in, so occasional distractions and novelties may entertain you. Don’t be surprised if people figure out how to capitalize on this.

153

Ha! To all the people who said I was going to have to take a dramtic quality of life hit and move to your sardin can tomb cities.

you are wrong wrong wrong wrong and did I say fucking wrong?
I ran out of gas on the way home. This is why I’m a Taoist (even if I suck at it, which I do) cause sucky stuff like that turn into advantage.

It gave me time to think. I was running my little primate brain trying to figure out a way to get a hi-bred. When you’re broke and your total networth is less then 4 digits this is undoable.

Then it hit me.

Mopeds\motorcycles get just as good of gas milage! They exist right now! You can go buy one for your commute. I’m looking at them online and finding ones that get 80 mpg with a top speed of 70 mph for $1,200! (plus hidden costs I’m sure).

Fuck I’m about to have an orgasm. It’ll solve so many problems, it’s just so fucking sweet. Plus I worked a deal out with someone to barter my car for one of my choosing (providing it’s under $2,000 total).
This is also the missing piece of the puzzle for the fed to handle the gas chrises!

Give everyone a voucher to get a moped for their commute, then make the economic stimulus bonus dependent on doing 75% of your daily commute on the thing. Suddenly people are riding these suckers, suddenly our gas use drops way the fuck down. And even if the price don’t drop, who cares! It’d have to go up to $16 a gallon to be as bad as most autos are now! Meanwhile we impliment a synthetic fuel program, with high mpg requirements for future autos and eventually we can go back to our car driving life style with secure energy sources under our own control.
The plan isn’t perfect but it’s a heck of alot better then things are now I think!’

Fuck you opec, fuck you exxon, fuck you lobbiests, fuck you congress for letting it get this way, fuck you bush for your damn fool war that devastated the dollar.

hello blessed motor bikes! Hello freedom of the open road again. I missed you so.

154

Tao’s Revenge, do you live in a place without cold winters? I can’t see a lot people riding open scooters year-round in places where the temperature regularly drops below freezing, even though I see determined bicyclists doing the same. (Cyclists’ exertion keeps them a lot warmer.)

Even as a warm-weather thing, though, scooters are gaining in popularity here in the sometimes-frozen north.

155

I live in Michigan near the Indiana border. It don’t get nearly as cold here. Maybe -15 C at night at the coldest. (rough estimate, all my temp memories are in our scale:p) My friend who lives in the Toronto area says it gets -40 (C or F, your choice, they’re both right).

Still you can warm hands pretty nice just burning the piles of money saved.

Or spend your savings on a nice warm snow suit, and some long legged under wear.

156

Btw to answer the thread title.

Gimmie a few weeks to get a bike and get it in order then fuck yea bring it.

157

I’ve thought the same thing. Motorcycles are old hat to me. Started riding when I was 11. I like em. Just not very practical when you see over 20 feet of snow a year (it’s snowing now, there is a little glacier at the end and middle of the drive). There might be two safe months for motorcycles. And 6 months when you don’t go into 4x4 every day.

Today was actually the slickest drive over the pass I’ve seen in 17 years. Had to stop at one point, got out and could barely stand on my feet.

We have some great views though.

158

Wow thank goodness for low elevation. I’m kind of worried about that. How icy does it have to be before they’re dangerous? They make snow tires?

159

Well IMHO, Any ice or snow makes it dangerous

Even the sand spread on roads after snow is dangerous to bikes.

I didn’t really finish my story. Thought it would be too hard to believe.

One of the reasons that we stopped on the downhill portion of the drive this morning was because a motorcycle was down. In the middle of the road. I’m stunned that the guy got as far as he did. He picked a real bad day to try to go over the continental divide.

Conditions where very tricky. Good road for a mile, and then glare ice. I’ve seen ‘black’ ice before, but nothing like this.

Me, a propane truck a 4x4 pickup and two other SUVs saw what we where getting into, We had already slowed to 5-10 mph. and managed to use the snow and ice covered gravel shoulder to get some traction and get stopped. Perhaps a 5% grade.

It took 5 of us to get the bike back on it’s wheels (beautiful BMW) and slowly slide our selves and the bike over to the shoulder.

A buddy of mine came over the pass an hour and a half later. The motorcyclist was still wating for the road to clear up.

I don’t believe they make specific snow tires for bikes, It’s pretty pointless. Though they do make tires that are better in rain.

You don’t want to ride in snow unless your on a dirt bike, off road, for fun.

160

One more caveat for biking during winter: I don’t know if Tao has ridden a regular bicycle during winter weather. I have, and even exercising, pushing the bike through snow, the worst part for me was that my fingers, in good gloves no less, were always so stiff after the relatively short rides I took, between the effects of temperature, windchill, and gripping a metal bar well away from the bulk of one’s bodymass, that braking was a problem.

With a motorcycle, or motorscooter, where all the controls, AIUI, are on the handles, I’d think that the stiffness that would come from cold fingers would be even more of a hassle. And a hazard.