Do you, Valteron, have any problem with tarring all Christians with the brush that should used only on a very few members of the Religous Right?
Good poem. I posted a link on my facebook page, so probably nobody’ll see it.
Not sick of it, but I was kind of annoyed when I visited tigetdirect the other day, and it said something like “Order by December 20 in order to receive your order by the holidays”.
Christmas, tigerdirect. Order by December 20 to receive it by Christmas. It’s obvious by the date that you had December 25 in mind as the target date.
I get irked by both sides: the Christians (certainly not all Christians) who think “Happy Holidays” or “Seasons Greetings” is disrespectful or exclusive of believers (remember Bill O’Reilly leading this charge a couple of years back?) and the non-believers who act as if they’ve been forcibly converted if someone puts a Nativity Set in a town park where it’s been displayed for a hundred years. Both are just non-issues: for Christians, play martyr somewhere where there aren’t churches on every other corner and your vote can’t swing an election, and for sensitive non-believers having a traditional Christmas display on public property (especially when it’s a tradition) is NOT forcing you to accept it as literal is not the same as the 10 Commandments in a courtroom or mandatory public school prayer (both of which I do object to and do infringe on other people’s rights), so both sides- get over it. “Life obliges us with hardships” enough that you don’t really need to go looking for them.
Not personally, no, because I haven’t heard any this year.
If I did, I (a Christian) would be tempted to slap them.
Great poem, Valteron. Much better than the original.
My thread title says “Christians”, I realize, but is IS a title. If some don’t bitch, then I guess you are not tired of hearing them bitch, right? The first line of my OP does mention the religious right.
But you do not have to be among VERY far right Christians to hear that kind of Christiancentric nonsense. I remember a nun who taught me (and physically abused me, but I digress) who used to tell us to hassle storekeepers and other businesses who “took the Christ out of Christmas” by writing “Xmas”. Finally one kid of Greek origin said that X in Greek is short form for “Christ” since it is the first letter of the word (it is two letters, CH, in English). That poor kid was swatted around something terrible for contradicting the nun. May the love of X be with you too, bitch!
The same nun used to bemoan how Jews made “all that money” from Christians at Christmastime, when they did not even believe in him and had in fgact crucified him. Lovely people, those nuns. The most amazing part of the Sound of Music is the implication that Austrian nuns would have been anti-Nazi.
Merry Christmas, everybody…and a Happy New Year!
Ahhh…it felt good to come right out and say that. 
It’s so amusing to me that the most tolerant people around here seem to be the conservatives. I have no problem with any other religion’s holidays, and you why?
It doesn’t affect me!
How is anyone put upon or oppressed (or having Christianity “imposed” on them) from a mere greeting?
Answer: They aren’t!
It would be far better if the OP would just be honest and admit that Christianity bugs him and that he/she’s like to see any trace of it removed from public view and discourse, and that all this hooey about Christianity being imposed upon everyone else is merely a more respectable-sounding dodge.
Wanna bet?
Exactly. There are even multiple Christian holidays in the next few weeks: Christmas, New Year’s, and Epiphany.
If only other conservatives were like that. I hear the most bitching by Christians whining that other people are getting attention.
Strictly speaking I am not really bothered by a manger scene, even on public property. But we non-believers know how believers function. You give them an inch and they will drag you a mile to the baptismal font.
Non-believers have to fight along every possible liner to keep believers back, because they are always fighting defensively.
Take for example “In God we Trust”. Has any atheist EVER asked the government to write “God does not exist” on money and other public, secular documents? NO!
But do religious believers care a rat’s ass that there is NO practical reason the mention God on the money, and that it serves no function other than to impose theism on non believers? NO WAY!
The majority believe in God, you say? Okay, the majority of Americans are also Christians. So why not make it in “In Jesus Christ we trust” and you can tell the Muslims, Jews and other non-Christians to go fuck themselves just as you have been telling atheists to go fuck themselves ever since you added “In God we Trust” to the money in the 50s.
I feel silly fighting a manger scene, yes, but you have to fight somewhere.
Meh. For every Christian I actually hear grumbling about “Happy Holidays” or whatever, I hear two proud non-Christians saying “Oh my stars and garters! Here’s a story about some Christians angry about ‘Happy Holidays’! Isn’t is swell that we’re ever-so-much more enlightened than those silly folk?”*
I’ll be the first to admit that my experiences may not echo yours. But, from this perspective, both camps are equally tiresome.
*That’s exactly how they say it, too.
Have you read my poem? Have you read the poem that gave rise to it? The whole point of the “Christian” poem was to moan and whine about how “persecuted” Christians are because stores use inclusive greetings and because we want public places paid for by the taxes of all citizens to remain neutral in all matters of religion, leaving everyone free to practise and express their religion on their own time and on their own property.
Sorry, but that sounds pretty darned tolerant to me, does it not?
I’m sick of well-poisoning thread titles, but hey, when I look in the pond and see a frog, I guess I expect to hear croaking. Otherwise, I’m generally happy all round with the run-up to Christmas, I have to say.
The standard greeting here is “Merry Christmas” and I think it’s fine. That’s what the holiday is for.
Can’t say as this is really an issue here in Canada at all, one way or the other.
As an atheist, I probably say “Merry Christmas” more often than anything. That is not and never was the issue of this thread. If 75% of Americans are Cjhristians, then “Merry Christmas” should be heard frequently and repeatedly, all over the country.
The whole point of this thread is to ask people what they think of conservative Christians whining with poems like the one in my OP just because civil libertarians draw the line at their imposing their religion in public places that are supposed to be religion neutral.
Of course the oddest revelation is that black kids and or Muslim kids and I suppose especially black Muslim kids love books by Al Franken and Jane Fonda. I’m not sure why exactly stores wish them Happy Ramadan since that’s currently in September (months in the Muslim calendar “float”) but I guess any opp to move those Franken books. And I also didn’t realize you gave gifts during Kwanzaa or Ramadan, but…
I remember sending cards that said “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings” back when I was a kidlet - in the '60s. Nobody minded, at all.
Great response, Valteron.
Pretty sure that only female cats go into heat.
Oh, and awesome poem. I am sooooo showing that to lunar and encouraging her to send it to her mom when the inevitable glurge flood comes.
It isn’t an issue of forced conversion, and it was just as improper 100 years ago in any case. And yes, it is an issue of “if you give a mouse a cookie”. We’ve already got people pointing out that school prayer had a long history, and claiming that society went to hell once it was removed, so we should have school prayer again. We’ve got cdesign proponentsists who want to shoehorn their religion into science classes.
I think that keeping religion totally free within the public sphere, and prohibiting any one faith from having the totality of public space is a fine goal. I don’t have anything against a creche in town square, as long as there’s a menorah and a crescent and a ‘there aint no God’ sign and…
Although, to be honest, I wish that American governmental institutions didn’t wear their faith on their sleeves in the public sphere. There’s no real reason that a town needs to put up any religious decorations when generic snowflakes and lights are beautiful, seasonal and traditional.
There’s really not all that different, although you’re right and they’re not the same. In all of those cases, a government entity is presenting one and only one religious view in the public sphere. And the message behind erecting a creche in town square (e.g. this is a Christian town) is as important as erecting a monument to the Ten Commandments in a US court (e.g. this is a Christian nation).
And, what’s more, I’d wager that most Christians who support Christian iconography in the public square would agree with the principle that it shouldn’t be there, as long as it isn’t their ox being gored. To test it, see how many towns would allow, instead of a creche, a sign stating “there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is His prophet.”
And, on a total tangent, sure, say “Merry Christmas and a happy new year.” if you want. Or “Merry Christmas and happy Chanukah and something or other Kwanzaa and happy new year.” Or “Merry Christmas and happy Chanukah and something or other Kwanzaa, and a joyous Solstice and a Goddess blessed Saturnalia and happy new year.” Or simply “Happy holidays.” Whatever floats your boat. But getting annoyed at another private citizen because of what they choose is silly.
Yeah, right, conservatives are “tolerant” when it comes to tolerating the status quo in which the believer majority’s values are promoted on money, and both on and in public institutions that in a democratic, secular state should be silent and neutral regarding ALL religious viewpoints.
But ask conservatives how likely they would be to vote for an atheist and you will see how far their tolerance goes.
Atheists, on the other hand, seem to have no probalem voting for believers as long as they are willing to respect the separation of Church and State.
The last time I heard bitching on this topic from anyone was several years ago when I was involved in a Christian group that was populated by a number of people from the vocal contigent of the Christian far-right.
I am no longer involved with that group. I no longer hear anyone complain on this topic. Mostly because I’d have to go very far out of my way to hear such complaints and be annoyed by them.