Aren't the "races" of mankind just a figment?

Something to think about. I propose an unpopular, but interesting idea. Let’s explore it:

Two different troops of chimpanzees, both living in Africa, have less genetic similarities with each other than ANY TWO HUMAN BEINGS ON EARTH.

Take any two dog breeds (Doberman, Golden Retriever, Australian Cattle Dog), and even though we treat them with the same respect and ‘rights’ (they’re all equally dogs), they, too, have much, much, much, MUCH more genetic differential than any two human ‘breeds’.

Yes, to us, human beings look different than other human beings.

However, as it turns out, the human race is nothing more than a SPECIES OF CLONES, much like a hive of ants or bees. Even though we have slightly different shades of pigmentation, differences in build or hair color, &c., these differences are negligible at best.

If aliens were to land on Earth, all they could say about us humans is “they all look alike to us”. :slight_smile:

Since we wiped out our closest humanoid cousins (Neanderthals), we’ve just been travelin’ 'round, breeding with each other for all these thousands of years, methodically eliminating any genetic differentials though our human love of travel and sex.

Add to genetic science the fact that anthropologists can’t even agree on how to classify the ‘human races’. How many are there? How do you classify Semites? Central Asiatics? Northeast Europeans? Indians? Australian ‘aborigines’? Polynesians?

Are ‘aborigines’ ‘black’? Are Italians as ‘white’ as Germans? How about Turks? Russians? It gets pretty stupid folks!

As the anthropolists point out, there ARE NO ‘PURE’ human races. EVERYBODY ON EARTH is a mutt. A hybrid. Everyone on earth has the blood of a neighboring ‘tribe’ or ‘race’ lingering 'round somewhere. Instead of ‘racial lines’, we have a global ‘racial’ swath of cloudiness and confusion. The fake idea of ‘race’ thus gets confused with the very real phenomena of culture or nationalism.

Well, since there are no pure ‘prototype’ races with which to compare, and since the genetic differences between us are so infintessimally small (a geneticist cannot tell someone’s race just by looking at their genes alone!!!), the whole thing seems arbitrary and stupid to me.

So, given all this, should we not simply:

a) acknowledge that people have slighly varying physical traits that are due to minute genetic differences?
b) eliminate ‘race’ as the definition of anything? It doesn’t EXIST!
c) concentrate on culture as the defining legacy of human beings that separates us into groups, instead of ‘race’?

Afterall, if someone has 1 ‘black’ parent and 1 ‘white’ parent (in America, at least), they’re considered ‘black’. What does that even mean? Nothing. All that matters is culture (identifying more with “black” culture instead of “white” culture). Same with kids with one ‘Hispanic’ parent or a ‘Jewish’ mother (hispanic, itself, being a made-up non-existent race. Mexicans, for example, come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. Brown, peach, lilly, and red. Same with ‘Jewish’. Israel looks like it’s full of “white guys” to me. It’s really about culture, not race, is it not, if we’re honest with ourselves?).

Was Jimi Hendrix “Black” or “Native American”? Was he “Black Enough”? Who cares?

Add politics to the confusion of race in genetic science and anthropology. In America, legally, there is NO PRECEDENT for determining someone’s “race”. REALLY! If you fill out on every legal document that you’re “Black” or “Native American”, as long as you’re consistent, you are what you declare you are! REALLY! No one has EVER been challenged for being a race other than what they claim.

I know a guy who has filled out “Native American” on every document that asks. He considers himself “White”, really. But it has gotten him benefits. Lower interest rates from the bank. Preferential treatment from other institutions. Dishonest? Perhaps. But does race even exist anyway?

In America, there is no legal precedent for ‘lying’ about ‘race’. Here, you can declare yourself any race you want, and be legally assured in that decision, with no negative repercussions (as long as you’re consistent). No one’s ever been brought to court for not being “black enough” or “native american enough”.

If you want to be “Black”, or “Hispanic”, in America, you can! Even if your skin is lilly white. At least, on paper you can (darker skinned people might challenge you on your assumption – then again, they might not – it depends on how well you can fit in culturally, doesn’t it? Afterall, isn’t Eminem “Black” and J. C. Watts “White”?).

It’s all just culture and nationalism. Not race. Race doesn’t exist. It’s a figment.

I say, I for one have NO RACE, save the HUMAN RACE. I declare myself raceless. If anyone asks what ‘race’ I am, I’ll answer ‘human’.

Being brought up “white” in America, I was, I must admit, blessed with an immense cultural gift. I grew up never thinking about my own “race”. It didn’t exist. I wasn’t a “white” guy… just a guy. My opinions weren’t shaped by my “race”. What music I liked wasn’t shaped by my “race”. Who I made friends with wasn’t shaped by my “race”.

Well, isn’t it about time we try and extend that cultural gift to others? To liberate others from the baggage of artificially contrived ‘race’? I’ve heard “black” folk say that their “blackness” enters into their thought processes and self-awareness often. Well, wouldn’t it be nice if, according to the Martin Luther King Dream, they didn’t have to think about race AT ALL? EVER? And wouldn’t the best way to achieve that goal be to eliminate RACE ENTIRELY? Eliminate it from college entrance considerations? Eliminate it from job applications? Eliminate it from loan applications? Eliminate it from the census? Eliminate it from politics? Eliminate it from everything?

Seems right to me. Isn’t “race” just a bullshit cover for culturalism?

I say, if you want to join or participate in a culture, then do it! But leave that ‘race’ bullshit at home. It doesn’t exist. There’s no such thing. The emperor has no clothes.

Just a thought. I could be wrong.

No, dude, you’re right on.

There are at least two huge problems with it as a general plan for thinking about life in the US, though.

First, the color of your skin determines a lot of how people think of you (regardless of whether you are a dark-skinned Pakistani caucasian or a ‘passing’ African American). Tha racism you experience is real, and until we can convince people they’re all the same, it’ll continue to be real.

Second, there’s no better substitute for instantly getting a handle on someone’s culture than by assessing their ‘race’. I’m not claiming it’s good one, but it works better than nothing.

I think those two points are flip sides of the same coin.

The net result is that as a practicality ‘race’ exists, and will continue to exist (in the US, at least) until there are lots more people with political clout who don’t look white.

by krsna77:

If by eliminate, you mean take the word out of popular use, then I don’t see much use in that. Race would not be eliminated simply by ignoring the fact that races DO exist, if only in our minds. As long as blacks, whites, and other groups see each other as different peoples, then race will exist. As long as people are judged by the color of their skin and texture of their hair, races will exist. Removing race from the census will not change that. A change of hearts and minds will.

If we took away gender descriptors, would we still be able to distinguish people with penises than those vaginas? I think we would.

> If by eliminate, you mean take the word out of popular use, then I don’t see much
> use in that. Race would not be eliminated simply by ignoring the fact that races DO
> exist, if only in our minds. As long as blacks, whites, and other groups see each other
> as different peoples, then race will exist. As long as people are judged by the color of
> their skin and texture of their hair, races will exist. Removing race from the census
> will not change that. A change of hearts and minds will.

Ok, fine. But by not eliminating the inquiry into race from public documents and human affairs, are we not simply perpetuating a lie? (assuming that I’m right and races don’t exist as such). Can a change of hearts and minds happen if we continue to acknowledge the validity of those ideas?

Will racism ever go away so long as we give special recognition, validation, or acknowledgement to ANY ‘race’; be it Affirmative Action, asking for your race on the census, giving a better interest rate or college admission scores to ‘minorities’, or what not? Are these things what MLK was dreaming of and fighting for (equality for all human beings)?

Race does exist, krsna77. It doesn’t exist biologically, but it exists socially.

> If we took away gender descriptors, would we still be able to distinguish people with
> penises than those vaginas? I think we would.

Ok. You can distinguish a male from a female just by looking. But can you really distinguish a “Black” person from a non-Black? Really?

What about Hallie Berry? What about American “Blacks” versus African “Blacks”, versus Australian “Blacks”? What about really dark Indians? Are they “Black”? Maybe they’re “White”! I dunno! What about Colin Powell? Is he “Black”? Why? How about the north Africans Muslim tribes? Are they “Black”? They’re often dark-skinned, but lack the kinky hair and facial features we normally associate with “Black”.

What if a guy with a good tan and a large nose, but straight dark hair and green eyes, tells you he’s “Black”. Do you believe me? Is he half? Is he a poser? How can you tell?

Race, when you really get into it, seems a lot cloudier and unreal than gender to me.

> Race does exist, krsna77. It doesn’t exist biologically, but it exists socially.

Exactly! That’s my point!

So, should we not stop perpetuating the lie in our social lives, and begin to IGNORE RACE AS A CONSIDERATION FOR ANYTHING? Wouldn’t that be the first step in moving towards a liberating, race-free society? :slight_smile:

Of course, perhaps race does exist biologically. I could be wrong. But given my belief (given the information I have on hand at this time) that it does not, then all we’re doing by pandering to the race-conscious in our society, even the well-meaning ones, is continually shooting ourselves in the foot, hampering our progress towards the dream of human equality.

By looking at them? Sure! Are the criteria that I use to distinguish blacks from non-blacks based on factors arbitrarily set by society, like hair and skin color? Yes, they are. But does this mean race doesn’t exist? No. Not any more than nationality doesn’t exist, even though it too is socially constructed.

I think this is noble and idealistic, but not gonna happen. Ever. We can change how race is defined–perhaps draw it more along nationality than skin-color or what not–but I think we’re hard-wired to see differences and to equate these differences with “race”.

I knew someone who once said that white people are always demanding to black people to stop talking about race and their “community” and become raceless individuals, like white people. And this person replied that he would put down his gun when they (meaning white people) would put down theirs. I took this statement to mean that no one wants to think about race matters, but it’s not easy just tossing it out of the window. Why? Because racial discrimination and the effects of past racial discrimination still exist. The gun is still pointing at black people, so to speak. Only UNTIL racial hatred and discrimination disappears will it be prudent for us to pretend that race doesn’t exist. And it’s dangerous for those who have been historically oppressed to be suckered into thinking that race doesn’t matter when everybody and their momma knows it still does.

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How many times have we had this conversation in the last two years? Ten? A dozen? Let’s see.

I agree completely. Of course, that means that people will no longer be denied college entrance, employment, loans, or votes because they are members of a minority race. Therefore, we’ll need every American to cut that out.

So get the signatures of all the heads of the major white supremacist organizations on a paper acknowledging that black people are socially, intellectually, and in other way equal to white people and entitled to work, eat, study, and marry with them equally.

Then maybe we can talk.

far too many for my taste. Maybe all my responses here should just be links to my previous responses.

Race was created by people not by documentation. Therefore race will end when people don’t find it useful anymore. Removing race from the census with the intent of making race disappear is like expecting aspirin to heal a toothache. It may make us feel better temporarily, but in the long-run it does nothing but mask the underlying issue.

For hundreds of years the concept of race was treated like a very valid construct, so valid in fact that African-American culture would not exist in the form that it does now had race not been given the undue attention that it received. Pretending now that race is invalid would be wrong, though, as it would be overlooking the fact that race-consciousness in the past has led to people-disparities in the present. These disparities go beyond just economic and political wealth; it includes intangibles like perspective.

Racism is not caused by Affirmative Action or race checklists. It’s caused by ignorance, close-mindedness, and irrational thinking. AA and other programs are a reaction to racism, not the source of it. It’s backwards to think otherwise.

I know you mean well, but why does the MLK card get so much heavy play in these kinds of discussions? MLK believed in equality for his people, but he knew that wouldn’t happen just by saying “Okay, let’s just love one another and pretend that black people are just like white people except with dark tans.” Part of fighting for equality is redressing past wrongs. That will not happen if we pretend race is nonexistant.

We talked about this on another thread. She’s black. What’s the mystery?

We both agree that the biological basis for race is pretty thin. As for who is black and who is not, check out the Halle Berry thread and the article that Biggirl linked to. Although race carries the pretense of biology, it is more social than anything, so trying to define it based on geography is as wrong as trying to define it genetically.

You mention Australian aborigines, Indians, and north Africans. I’ve always been curious as to how these groups define themselves once they enter the US. I’ve known of dark-skinned Indians who are considered “black” by lighter-skinned Indians, and I’ve known of some north Africans who consider themselves white and some who consider themselves black even though they look no different than the ones who call themselves white. In these particular situations, I think the sociopolitical component of race-labeling weighs in heavily. A lot of Indians consider themselves white, even though society at large does not consider them white (or else the term interracial wouldn’t be applied to their unions with whites). And I wonder how “white” Arab-Americans felt post 9/11, when they started getting profiled and sterotyped and showcased on the 6:00 news. Did they feel “white”, or did they suddenly feel “black”? This kind of question is more important than figure out who is and who isn’t black.

I’d also like to say that difference isn’t the problem. Even if we were all the same skin color, we’d still find something else to trash people about. It’s not difference that we need to eradicate: it’s intolerance to difference.

Exactly. Look at an all-white prep school. The kids will still find someone (overweight, not smart, too smart, etc.) to pick on. Adults are no different. Catholics and Protastants in Ireland-- I challenge anyone to go there and point out the two groups just by looking at them. Hutus and Tutsis-- same thing.

Like it or not, race is hear to stay. At least until all the women look like Halle Berry and all the men look like, help me out here ladies, Tiger Woods…?

SimonX, krsna77 : Some legwork since I had some time on my hands ( stupid cold virus ) -
For the chimpanzee vs. human genetic diversity - This is indeed a fact: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1999-11/AAft-Csag-031199.php

and

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/difiore/geneticsandhumanvariation/pdfs/ruvolo1997.pdf
On the genetic diversity of dog breeds vs. humans - Hadn’t heard this one before, but a little searching turned up this little essay on current research which lends credence to this idea in at least a very broad sense ( insomuch as it ascribes a fair bit of diversity to dogs, including either multiple domestication or backcrossing events ) :

http://www.floridalupine.org/publications/dogs-origins.htm

However any more specific cites would be nice.

On humans being clones - Patently not true in a literal sense, but very slightly true in a metaphorical sense. What is correct to say is that humans seem to have remarkably low genetic diversity compared to many/most species, which would seem to indicate some population bottleneck at some point in our history ( probably a founder effect ). Cite for the low level of human diversity - see the second linked paper on the chimpanzees vs. humans above. For a discussion of two different possibilities of how this bottleneck occurred see:

http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/paleo/bottleneck.html

Aliens and us - Pass, sorry :).

On Neandertals and their demise - This continues to be a hotly debated and speculative topic. I’ll refer you to the thread currently underway in GQ as a starter:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=159982

On humans intermixing indiscriminately - This does seem to be the case throughout history - We tend to screw anything, anywhere. I’m not sure what sort of cite you’re looking for SimonX, but I can try to dig something up if you can perhaps narrow or rephrase the question.

Anthropologists and classifying race - Seems obvious there would be disputes, but here’s a teaser:

The following statement was adopted by the Executive Board of the American Anthropological Association, acting on a draft prepared by a committee of representative American anthropologists. It does not reflect a consensus of all members of the AAA, as individuals vary in their approaches to the study of “race.” We believe that it represents generally the contemporary thinking and scholarly positions of a majority of anthropologists.

Emphasis added. From the American Anthropological Association position paper on race, which can be found here: http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm

On determining race by genetic testing - See stuff above. Far as I can tell, it would seem impossible for the "
classical races". Specific populations are a different matter.

  • Tamerlane

The thing is that there are clearly biological (genetic) differences between, let’s say, a pure-blood Norwegian and a pure-blood Kenyan and a pure-blood Japanese person. For that matter, there is considerable difference between a pure-blood black person from Nigeria and one from Ethiopia, as there is between a pure-blood white person from Swede and one from Ireland.

These are mostly tribal differences, of course.

And certainly the notion of “race” becomes silly when one considers the intermarriages.

However, just because there are lots of shades of grey, doesn’t mean that there’s no difference between black and white. (Or, if you’d prefer, just because there are lots of shades of green doesn’t mean there’s no difference between blue and yellow.)

And there are diseases that one race or another are sensitive to or susceptible to. So that some classification can be useful in some circumstances… recognizing that there is an arbitrariness at the borders.

I never understood why the child from a marriage between a “white” person and a “black” person should be called “black”, when they are half of each. I’d go for “grey” myself.

Leaving aside how many “pure blooded” people are left on earth, those genetically derived differences are expressions of alleles, rather than differences among them. A recent thread on race and genetics started out with a report that a group had found a series of tests that could place a very high percentage of people according to continent of origin–but it required a computer program to evaluate constellations of sequences for probabilities in order to arrive at the determination. Aside from some selected populations within the various regions, no “continental” group could be identified by specific genes. They could only arrive at the answer by associating various groupings of genes statistically, and any individuals from the same continent may or may not have the same groupings–they simply shared one of the separate patterns of groupings that appeared to correlate to geography.