Hmmmm?
The difference that the civil rights workers admitted that they were breaking the law and were willing to accept the punishments of that law to show that it was immoral (as opposed to setting themselves outside of the while pretending to “enforce” it)?
The difference that the civil rights workers were not armed and dangerous?
I’m not surprised that you are unable to see differences, but there do appear to be some.
Well, RobertTB, as it is illegal for the U.S. military to act in a law enforcement capacity, posse comitatus and all that, withdrawing the military from abroad won’t have any impact on illegal immigration from Mexico.
So that means we would need to spend more money on the INS, etc. How much more, exactly, are you willing to pay in taxes for the Border Patrol?
RobertTB another question. You say the government is refusing to enforce the law: do you speed? Does it outrage you that, most of the time you speed, the police don’t pull you over?
How much more in taxes, exactly, are you willing to pay so that there will be enough cops to pull you over every time you break the law by speeding?
Or are only laws that don’t affect you supposed to be enforced?
Sua
Simple nonsense. The vigilantes are at greater risk of dying in a drunken auto crash than of being harmed by an illegal immigrant. The border patrol has had how many deaths in the last 30 years? Any more than 1?
Back in the 1950’s, a number of Northerners went to the South to work in opposition to Jim Crow. Some of their activities violated local and state laws. We consider these people to be heroes. What’s the difference?
I agree. In my eyes, Mexicans who enter the US are violating laws which are unfair and against the most basic human principle that we are all created equal. Mexicans challenging immigration laws is no different from blacks challenging segregation laws. In my book we are all children of the same god and we are born human, not Mexican or American.
>> This fleeing murderer was one of the illegal Mexicans illegally crossing into Arizona.
And somehow this taints other people who share with him the same nationality? You use the same language the segregationists used with ML King and other black leaders. Throw dirt in them and discredit them and their group. How on earth are any other people responsible for the crimes of that man except that man himself. You are implying by extension that all those people are bad people because one of them was a murderer. You really have no shame. I know a guy who speaks the same way about Jews. What one Jew does reflects and is responsibility of all Jews and, therefore, all Jews are bad. I get sick of hearing it from him and I am sick of hearing it from you.
>> No doubt most of the illegal immigrants are looking for work, but we have no way of knowing how many of them may be criminals, or smugglers, or anything else.
Of course we have no way of knowing that about anybody, do we? I have no way of knowing whether most Jews are criminals or smuglers or anything else. betetr start rounding them up before they do anything.
>> Note that the vigilantes are risking their lives, just as the freedom riders did, because they don’t know what they’ll run into.
Yes, bank robbers are also risking their lives because they don’t know what they’ll run into. Just like the freedom riders. What’s your point? Both vigilates and bank robbers are doing something illegal and antisocial.
>> Don’t forget that every one of these people was willing to break the immigration law to come here and, if they’re seeking work, they’re willing to violate the employment laws, too.
Just like blacks who challenged the unfair segregation laws. In my book they are on the same level.
And, if breaking any laws makes you a bad person likely to break other laws, then let us start rounding up all those people who break the speed limit every day. Then we can go on to those who smoke pot. Oh, never mind, they’re already doing that.
Has anybody read Joseph Wambaugh’s Lines and Shadows? This is one of his non-fiction works. And a quite interesting tale of what happened in southern California between 1976 & 1978 with an officially sanctioned border task force. This one was ostensibly set up to, not to actually aid illegals in crossing the border, but to provide some measure of protection against the criminals that preyed on them. This thing, even with offical oversight and help from the INS, got entirely out of hand. I shudder to think how a group with no sanction or controlling authority might act in these circumstances.
Wow, DDG my little one liner about military on the border sparked all that? Well, with the emminant war with Mexico and all, I better start stocking up on canned food and shotgun shells. :rolleyes:
The military exists to protect the national security of this country. One of the (if not the most) serious threat to national security right now is terrorists sneaking in a WMD through either of our wide open borders and killing millions of us. The INS and border patrol have proven themselves ineffective. The military has the personel, expertise and material to secure the borders. The American people support this idea.
I didn’t mean to say there was no difference; I wanted posters to reason out what the difference was. Frankly, I like sailor’s answer. S/he is sympathetic to illegal immigrants and unsympathetic to the perpetrators of Jim Crow.
You praised openness about breaking the law; the vigilantes satisfy that standard. I don’t know what you meant by:
The vigilantes are enforcing the law, albeit by illegal methods.
I think sailor was wrong in writing, “Of course we have no way of knowing [whether they’re criminals, etc.] about anybody, do we?” I believe that we do have access to the criminal records of legal immigrants. That’s one reason to prefer legal to illegal immigration.
UncleBeer, I haven’t read that book, but it sounds fascinating. Thanks for the suggestion.
Debaser, read what Sua wrote. It’s illegal. The government cannot do it without breaking the law. Not to mention that this is not the type of thing the military is trained for. Not to mention that the people who live along the border wiould not like to have a military occupation and would clamor against it.
And I’d like to see some support that the Mexicans sneaking across the border are carrying weapons of mass destruction. Gimme a break. Many die in the desert. You think they can carry a nuclear weapon?
Well, thank you so much for volunteering to be our spokesperson, but this American doesn’t support military troops patrolling the Mexican border. And I’d like a cite for the (implied) assertion that most Americans support the idea.
Don’t a lot of rachers and farmers also depend on Mexican illegals as migrant workers?
I guess if it was a big enough problem, all they would have to do is errect some of those 20’ high noise barriers you see along the highway as a "Chinese Wall’ between the US and Mexico.
sailor, I don’t think people are worried about Mexicans with suitcase nukes. I think the worry is that if a thousand Mexicans can sneak across the border each day, how hard would it be for a trained terrorist?
I have seen no evidence that the vigilantes are “enforcing” any law. It appears that they are behaving in the manner of the Ku Klux Klan to terrorize people they do not like, but I have seen no mention of any laws that they are truly enforcing.
I don’t support the idea of using the military, but I’m not as sanguine as SuaSponte seems to be that this would violate the Posse Comitatus Act.
It’s worth noting at the outset that the Act (18 USC § 1385) is just that: a statutory provision, not a constitutional prohibition. As such, a subsequent act of Congress could permit the specific use contemplated above.
The Act generally prohibits the military from law enforcement activities. But the guarding of a national boarder is not merely an enforcement of the federal law regarding immigration - it is arguably a matter of national security. No one would question, for example, the right of the military’s role in intercepting an aircraft that crossed into US airspace without permission, even if the ultimate purpose of the flight turned out to be drug smuggling.
In addition, of course, the military could provide assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies. 10 USC § 371 et seq, for example, authorizes military assistance in the loaning, maintenance, and even operation of specialized equipment in support of domestic law enforcement.
They’re enforcing the immigration laws (or, more precisely, trying to stop people from breaking these laws.)
sailor, I will quibble with your comment
We’re not talking about Mexicans sneaking across the border; we’re talking about people sneaking across the Mexican border. These people may not all be Mexican.
>> We’re not talking about Mexicans sneaking across the border; we’re talking about people sneaking across the Mexican border. These people may not all be Mexican.
Great. I’d like to see some evidence that those people who are sneaking accross the border and are often dying in the desert, are likely or even capable of carrying weapons of mass destruction.
Furthermore, I would like to see some convincing explanation that a bunch of self-appointed vigilantes is the best way to defend against such WMD. In which case I say send the guys to Iraq since they are so ready for action.
Unfortunately, it is the best way, because it’s the only way. The government isn’t doing Jack Sh*t about this.
[minor quibble]Jack Shut? Jack Shqt? Oh, if only there weren’t an asterisk, I would know what you meant to say! How you tease me with these coy codes![/minor quibble]
[major quibble]What exactly is the government not doing Jack Shmt about? About people smuggling WMD into the US? Because I got the impression that the government had (so far) a 100% success rate of keeping WMD from being smuggled into and used in the US. Unless these bordercrossers are carrying jetliners, that is.
Or do you mean they’re not doing Jack Shbt about people crossing the border? Because I thought that’s what the fences along the border, and the INS, were about.
Or are you mistakenly thinking these militia are guarding the Canadian-US border, where the US really isn’t doing much of Jack Shwt? AFAIK, most of the terrorists who’ve been caught after coming into the US came in through Canada.
Dan*el
So you really think a bunch of rednecks with guns are actually stopping people from entering the US with weapons of mass destruction? ummmm . . .ok. whatever.
Besides, the government doesn’t do Jack Shit about many other things and that does not grant anyone a license to usurp governmental functions.
The government doesn’t do Jack Shit about the drug dealing and violence in some DC neighborhoods but that does not mean you can ride in with your redneck friends and impose your concept of law and order.
Vigilantes do not have legal authority to ask you for your papers and it will serve them right if people start shooting back.
… or of shooting each other by mistake or accident.
Maybe this link will shed a little more light on what kind of people these vigilantes really are:
*“On Saturday a group of Arizona vigilante ranchers were joined by white supremacist groups from California for a meeting at Sierra Vista, Arizona for the explicit purpose of discussing a plan of action to deal with what they call “a Mexican invasion” by undocumented workers. A white supremacist by the name of Glenn Spencer, head of a group called American Patrol, led a contingent of California anti-Mexican bigots to the meeting with vigilante rancher Roger Barnett who told US World Report that he is ready to “kill Mexicans” if it became necessary. The meeting was also attended by the Arizona 9th District of the Imperial Wizards of the Klux Klax Klan according to the newspaper La Reforma of Mexico. According to La Reforma, a proposal surfaced at the meeting to place anti-personnel land mines at strategic places along the border in order to deter illegal immigration by Mexicans.” *
Are these the kind of people anyone feels should be applauded?
Also does the mainstream media in the USA make it a point to widely publish the abuses some of these poor people have suffered while crossing the border?
Where do these assholes get the right to be judge, jury and executioner?
December, I rarely do this but I simply don’t believe you. I think it is about Mexicans. If it were just about people then you probably should organize a bunch of vigilantes to help guard the Port Of New York-New Jersey.