Armed protesters stalk peaceful Muslims at Texas mosque: We want to show force

[Rhythmdvl]

@John_Mace

If only it were that simple. How does that statute define “display” and “calculated to alarm?” Can you cite an instance, similar to this one, where people were prosecuted under this statute?

Granted it’s been years since law school, but I thought the “I’m not touching you” defence was thoroughly rejected by the courts in Finders Keepers v. Losers Weepers. At the very least it’s an affirmative defence that has a substantial burden. It’s one thing to try and argue the facts of a specific case, but to use it in a motion to dismiss for lack of grounds is laughable at best; otherwise it strikes of disingenuousness.
Or maybe a wholesale lack of imagination. You can’t fathom a case where someone is intimidate into action by otherwise legal acts? “Your Honour, my client cannot have robbed this gentleman. He only *asked *for his wallet, he did not demand it. Furthermore, his four friends behind him were carrying perfectly legal firearms that they never completely unholstered. We don’t need any judicial process, because freedom of speech means that it’s perfectly ok to ask someone if they would give you their wallet. If not, all charities would never be able to make donation requests…”
Go on, try it. Try and think of a scenario where a small constellation of legal acts are otherwise deemed unlawful.

Note I’m not making any claims as to what these idiots should or could be charged with. Rather, I’m mocking your blanket assessment that they couldn’t be doing anything wrong because of the Rights to assembly and bear arms.

[Happy_Fun_Ball]

@lucid-nonsense

http://www.12newsnow.com/story/24352754/man-carrying-gun-on-his-back-in-mall-is-charged-with-a-crime

Here is a link to a story about a man being arrested and charged for carrying a rifle strapped to his back while walking through a mall.

Note that he wasn’t masked, wasn’t holding the rifle with his finger near the trigger, and didn’t declare he was making a show of force.

But answer me honestly, do you think pacing back and forth in front of someone’s property dressed up as a death squad member with a rifle at the ready isn’t “intending to cause alarm”? And I’m not asking about what a court would rule, I’m asking about you think personally.

I’m getting the feeling that John thinks everything is hunky-dory with this display which I find surprising. He is usually rational and well balanced but yesterday it almost seemed that somebody had pissed in his cheerios or something.

I personally think these guys should be charged with anything a prosecutor can think of even if it does not stick. I don’t know if an armed society is a polite society, but these guys make me doubt it. Can you image what would happen if every time somebody had a disagreement with an organization or politician, they stalked them in black masks with guns. These guys need to be taught that this kind of behavior, while possibly legal, is not really acceptable. YMMV and all that.

[John_Mace]

@lucid-nonsense

http://www.12newsnow.com/story/24352754/man-carrying-gun-on-his-back-in-mall-is-charged-with-a-crime

Here is a link to a story about a man being arrested and charged for carrying a rifle strapped to his back while walking through a mall.

Note that he wasn’t masked, wasn’t holding the rifle with his finger near the trigger, and didn’t declare he was making a show of force.

OK, that’s pretty good. It’s unclear if the guy was actually convicted of a crime (the article only says he was charged), but we’re getting pretty close. I did a little searching on open carry in TX, and maybe the issue is that open carry is allowed for handguns, not for rifles.

But answer me honestly, do you think pacing back and forth in front of someone’s property dressed up as a death squad member with a rifle at the ready isn’t “intending to cause alarm”? And I’m not asking about what a court would rule, I’m asking about you think personally.

I’m one of those gun-grabbing, anti-2nd amendment types. I have no affinity for guns, and am record as saying that I think the 2nd amendment is an anachronism. I would like to see much stronger gun control in the US. So, personally, yeah, I think those guys were assholes trying to intimidate innocent citizens.

But… my views are generally not the law, and specifically in TX, I was thinking that an open carry law would cover what these guys were doing. Looks like I might have been wrong on that. It will be interesting to see if these guys ARE charged with a crime, but I think we can be sure it won’t be “terrorism”.

[octopus]

I’m pro 2nd amendment and I don’t think government has an intrinsic right to anything. I support jackassery with speech because a pansy getting his feels triggered isn’t a big deal. Jackassery with firearms is a lot more serious. Rights depend on the support of the people and if the reasonable people think it’s not safe because of nuts with guns than rational people with guns get inconvenienced as well. Therefore it’s in ones self interest if they are pro 2nd amendment to call out nutty gun owners as such.

[septimus]

@irae

You must be a big fan of broken socialism if you dont support hard twerking americans exorcising there rite to freeze peach you might as well lay down and roll over for barack whose sane oblahblah who wants to impose his secret muslin sangria law on america

Eloquent.

Have you considered running for the GOP Presidential nomination? There’s still room on the kiddies’ stage.

[j666]

@octopus

Where is the wailing and gnashing of teeth of actual racist assaults by the BLM crowd?

Can you link to reports for me?

[Lemur866]

Lets remember a few months ago when a report of a black kid with a gun resulted in cops zooming up and opening fire on him before their car even pulls to a stop.

If a swat team roared up and started shooting every white person with a gun outside the Mosque, what do you think the reaction would be?

[xenophon41]

Um, I’m gonna guess horror and outrage?

Seriously, I’m not sure what you’re trying to point out here.

[elucidator]

Its Texas. Calm reasoning leading to a just and equitable solution.

[Northern_Piper]

@John_Mace

The right of assembly and the right to bear arms are in the constitution. There is, as I’m sure you know, no right to be sheltered from a feeling of intimidation by other people excising their rights.

These people may be jerks, but they are breaking no law nor are they violating the rights of anyone else (as rights are defined in the US judicial system).

WHat about 18 U.S. Code § 241 - Conspiracy against rights?

[QUOTE=Congress of the United States]
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or

If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
[/QUOTE]

The First Amendment protects the right of Muslims in the free exercise of their religion, and also in their right to peaceably assemble.

A conspiracy to threaten or intimidate them in the exercise of those First Amendment rights looks to me like it would fall within the first paragraph of the section.

Going masked on either the mosque property or the public street near the mosque, with the intent of preventing or hindering the free exercise of those rights, may come within the second paragraph, if being masked meets the condition of “disguised” in the second paragraph, and if a street fits within the term “highway”.

[Gukumatz]

I’ve been out of the loop for a while on the US gun debate.

Does the US laws distinguish between going armed on an everyday sort of basis and specifically arming yourself for participation in an event?

[octopus]

@Northern_Piper

WHat about 18 U.S. Code § 241 - Conspiracy against rights?

The First Amendment protects the right of Muslims in the free exercise of their religion, and also in their right to peaceably assemble.

A conspiracy to threaten or intimidate them in the exercise of those First Amendment rights looks to me like it would fall within the first paragraph of the section.

Going masked on either the mosque property or the public street near the mosque, with the intent of preventing or hindering the free exercise of those rights, may come within the second paragraph, if being masked meets the condition of “disguised” in the second paragraph, and if a street fits within the term “highway”.

So getting in someones grill like the mob at University of Missouri did with that crazy professor calling for muscle to silence a reporter would be a crime in Texas. Fascinating. I thought “consequences” were the legitimate response to ideas you disagreed with.

That said walking around with a weapon is legal in many states and merely walking around with a weapon shouldn’t be interpreted as a threat.

[Gukumatz]

@Leaper

This brought to mind an interesting question: in several European countries, stuff like this would, IIRC, be illegal — or at the least, there are more strictures on what we in the U.S. think of as free speech.

Now, we’ve always been taught that such laws are a slippery slope towards the government deciding what is and isn’t offensive or what not. But, AFAIK, that hasn’t happened in any of said European countries. Why not? Or is it, and we just don’t hear about it?

Well, first off, open carry permit for civilians in Europe are virtually non-existent across the board. For concealed carry licenses, some countries have exceptions for individuals who can prove “tangible and immediate threats to their safety.” I think Serbia and the Czech Republic also permit open carry in those circumstances, but I hear permits are extremely rare. The Czech Republic however allows concealed carry for licensed handgun owners - which requires a comprehensive background check and various competency exams - without additional requirements.

Essentially, freedom of speech laws wouldn’t really be an issue because, to put a point on it, most cities in Europe couldn’t field 12 civilians allowed to openly carry guns at all.

That aside, yes, many European countries have strictures around free speech. It’s hard to measure and compare the effects, but using the Press Freedom Index as an indicator may be useful. It shows that Europe is basically all over the chart - on the top and distressingly close to the bottom. It’s basically impossible to make any accurate generalizations about Europe as a whole and a headache to try to get an overview over what’s impermissible where and when.

[Leaper]

Geez, I’m relieved none of the Muslim worshipers accidentally said something that sounded like “Allahu Ackbar” in hearing of one of these people, especially if they happened to be reaching inside their clothing for their cell phone or something. I can easily envision one of the “protesters” panicking and shooting them, then saying afterward, “He was saying what those terrorists say before they blow themselves up! It was self defense!”

He’d probably be acquitted, too.

[Gyrate]

The Muslims in Texas have nothing to worry about. It’s not like a group of armed white men in America would ever open fire on a group of unarmed minorities they disagreed with.

Again.

This week.

[Monty]

@octopus

That said walking around with a weapon is legal in many states and merely walking around with a weapon shouldn’t be interpreted as a threat.

You haven’t bothered to read the OP, have you? Those folks aren’t “merely walking around with a weapon”.

[octopus]

@Old_Time_Hockey

So obviously you have no problem with what these redneck cowardly fucks are doing? Conservatives seem to paint all Muslims with the same brush, just ask your leading Presidential candidate. May as well call it a race thing, since they all look alike to you.

So black, white, Asian, Arab, Persian Muslims all look alike to me? I’m not Mr Magoo. I think you might be projecting a bit.

[octopus]

@Monty

You haven’t bothered to read the OP, have you? Those folks aren’t “merely walking around with a weapon”.

I read it. But nowhere can I see where it’s illegal in Texas to protest while open carrying. Do I think it’s a bad idea? I think it’s on the not wise side of the spectrum. Unless you are protesting The Man trying to steal your cattle.

[BrainGlutton]

@octopus

Unless you are protesting The Man trying to steal your cattle.

:rolleyes:

[Gyrate]

@octopus

I read it. But nowhere can I see where it’s illegal in Texas to protest while open carrying. Do I think it’s a bad idea? I think it’s on the not wise side of the spectrum. Unless you are protesting The Man trying to steal your cattle.

Cliven? Is that you?