Do they have a warrant?
The great puzzle of the American middle class is their unyielding faith in law enforcement and capitalism no matter how much either misbehaves.
Policies in any organization tend to be based on preventing illegal behavior or unsafe behavior. I don’t know where so many people get the attitude it’s just some silly idea the hospital came up with because writing 500pp of legalese is fun. (I blame dress codes.)
When anyone asks you to violate a policy on the job, even the police, it’s pretty much a certainty that they’re asking you to break the law or do something unsafe. And it IS a certainty that you’re at ground zero for any repercussions, rather than someone with a badge that could shoot an unarmed 12-year old in broad daylight and walk away with a mild reprimand.
As for my policy on home/car searches - the one in the Constitution works for me.
Absolutely. If I do not wish police to enter my home, then they may not enter my home unless they have a valid probable cause or warrant.
Pretty much the same as the nurse case. If a cop shows up at your door, and demands to see your roommate’s computer,(no warrant, just a demand) would you give it to him?
It is incumbent upon the officer to know the law. This is Police 101 stuff. Either he knew the law and was intentionally violating it or he didn’t know the law and there is no excuse for that. He could be successfully sued, IMHO, and not be protected by qualified immunity. QI does not apply if the officer acts contrary to well established law. The laws concerning the drawing of blood without consent or PC are well established. The nurse could also sue the city for failure to train, assuming the officer never got the training. One thing I haven’t seen addressed is the motive for the officer wanting the blood in the first place. If he wasn’t the driver what was the point?
I don’t think this was addressed yet, but the answer is no, the officer does not have to specify what law is being violated to be able to arrest you, generally but it can vary by state. Old Volokh article on the topic.
The prevailing theory is that this crash was caused because LE was involved in a high speed chase on the freeway & the suspect they were chasing veered into the opposite lane and crashed head on with the truck driver. The police wanted to go on a fishing expedition and see if the victim was impaired in any way, in order to cover their asses in case he later tried to sue them for causing the crash. “You can’t sue us, because you had X in your system!”. Corruption at every level.
No, she was right and he was wrong. Now yes, if he had pulled his firearm and said : “Draw the blood or i will blow your brains out!” she certainly should have complied.
But she was willing to take the risk of a bogus arrest, knowing the hospital would back her.
I did the same when I was on the Civil Grand Jury and the Police were being threatening. I knew the Presiding Judge would back me, so I will willing to take the risk. They backed down (so I wasnt arrested) and they got in serious trouble for harassing a juror during a official GJ investigation.
They should absolutely abide by that unless they have a warrant or a lawful exception to the warrant requirement that authorizes them to come into my home despite my policy.
Likewise, they may not override the hospital policy unless they have a warrant or an exception to the warrant requirement to violate the policy.
There must have been some additional circumstances to that case, because I can tell you that that kind of thing is done in medical schools, residency programs, and medical conferences all across America, every day. Just over this past week alone, in countless classrooms and conference rooms, teaching attendings or senior residents began a case discussion with residents or medical students by describing what they thought was an interesting case they recently had: “This 34 year old man with a history of alpha-1-antitrypsin deficiency presented to the emergency room with worsening shortness of breath over the past 3 days… here are his relevant physical exam findings… here are the results of his CBC and CMP… here is his chest X-ray…” without having gotten the patient’s consent, since none of that is identifying information. If people could win a lawsuit every time a deidentified x-ray image was shown in a medical presentation, that practice would have long since been shut down by now.
Also, if the patient filed a civil lawsuit, that has nothing to do with HIPAA. HIPAA is a federal law enforced by the Department of Health and Human Services. A private entity can notify HHS of a potential HIPAA violation, who can then investigate, cite you for violating it and fine you, or, there can even be criminal penalties for violating HIPAA, but a private entity can’t sue another private entity for violating HIPAA. Now, a private entity could sue another private entity for violation of confidentiality, and I suppose, if they could convince a jury, the defendant could lose the case even if there was no HIPAA violation. Think of how OJ Simpson was found not guilty of murder, but then sued and found liable for wrongful death.
Sounds like she did the right thing and it was a wrongful arrest. To be clear, I’m saying the same thing of the Alex Wubbels case. Had she drawn the blood and handed the vial over to the cop, I’m sure there are any number of penalties she could face: assault charges, discipline from her employer up to and including termination, discipline from the state nursing board including suspension or revocation of her license. But, unless someone can cite a case where it actually happened or a lawyer with expertise in this area stops by and tells us it’s likely, I remain skeptical that a HIPAA violation would be among them.
I’ve worked in interventional radiology for decades and we ALWAYS have patients sign consent to use their imaging, with demographics redacted. If they refuse to sign (which is extremely rare), their images are not used in presentation, publications, etc.
Yes indeed. Patients sue under privacy statutes in whatever jurisdiction the covered entity made the breach. I didn’t realize a covered entity could sue another covered entity for violating HIPAA–I thought only the gov’t had that power.
But if they do anyway is it your neighbors duty to stop them even if you entrusted him to watch over your home? And in the face of an arrest, even an unlawful one, are you going to hold your neighbor at task for not stopping them from entering your home?
And if they don’t what are you going to do about it right then and there when they are threatening arrest or use of force?
My point, which I failed to make eloquently, is that I can’t see that nurse being charged with a HIPAA violation or being fired for violating hospital policy when she was being bullied by an armed on duty LEO. It appears that officer put her in a miserable position and I can’t see how she should be punished if she complied with his order under duress.
If I have hired and trained them for the purpose of watching over my home, and have a contract with them that states that they will not allow anyone in my home without my permission, then yes, if they let a cop in without a warrant, then I would hold them to task. They broke the contract. They allowed my privacy to be violated unlawfully.
There are extenuating circumstances, the cops puts a gun to their head, then they should do what the cops wants to avoid being murdered by him, same as any other criminal threatening their life. But as far as the legal side, absolutely. If someone who was charged specifically with the car of my home violated my privacy like that, then I would be holding them to the breach of contract.
Threatening unlawful arrest, in full view of many respectable witnesses, with the support of my hospital administrator and the law that the cop is flagrantly violating in my hand? I would do the same as the nurse, refuse to break the law due to the bullying actions and unlawful orders of the thug wearing a badge.
Threatening use of force, well, that’s a bit different. If they are threatening to kill people, then you comply with their demands, just as you would with any other criminal that has you at gun point, then press charges on them and have them thrown in jail.
If he had threatened to kill or maim her in order to get his way, then yes, she would be under duress and should not be held accountable. If she simply acquiesces to his illegal demands, then not so much. If I walk in and demand a blood draw, and threaten to press charges or sue her if she doesn’t give it to me, should she? No. This cop had exactly as much right as I would, so why should she respond to his illegal demands?
To add to this, as the cop admits he has tried this on other hospitals in the past, and it has worked. He admits that he breaks the law on a regular basis, and that he intimidates the nurses in hospitals into being his accomplice in his illegal activities. So, the nurses following your advice and folding to the cop’s illegal demands did not get a chance to bring it up in court later, the patients whose privacy was violated did not get a chance to rectify the issue. This cop has been knowingly using threats and intimidation to break the law, and the only reason why he has stopped is because someone stood up to him. If she followed your advice, he would still be going in and illegally bullying hospital staff into breaking the law for him.
Cops are supposed to enforce the law, they are not above the law.
QFT
That’s what I’m saying; they can’t sue each other for violating HIPAA. Only the government has the power to enforce HIPAA.
The hospital’s policies may or may not reflect the law. If they did then the officer made an illegal arrest and if he drew blood would have committed a crime doing that also.
That’s the beginning and end of the argument. Ignorance of the law by an officer is irrelevant. If he broke the law he should be held accountable for his actions and that goes for the officer who instructed him.
True but also irrelevant. I’m talking about the nurse. How much intimidation and bullying is she supposed to take in the name of HIPAA and her job?
Do you endorse her using force to stop an officer from breaking the law? If so how much force?
I’d like to see where in HIPAA or a hospital policy handbook that says “you’ve got to do this even in the face of being jailed on a false arrest”.
This seems to have been an awful situation for that nurse. Holding her to a higher standard than someone holding the public office of peace officer seems unrealistic.
Read my signature. It’s the answer I gave people who asked why I took a 25 year retirement rather than a 30 year (and higher pension) from my first career. I’ll bet nurse Wubbels can definitely relate.
The officer was told by a detective that the department could get the blood through other means. This should have been the end of it.
This isn’t over. Officer Payne has been fired from a separate job as a part-time paramedic and the FBI has been asked to look into what happened.
NOW it’s over.
Salt Lake City Police Chief Mike Brown made the decision to fire Detective Jeff Payne after an internal investigation found he violated department policies when he arrested nurse Alex Wubbels and dragged her screaming from the hospital, department spokesman Sgt. Brandon Shearer said.
I don’t know for sure, but it would not surprise me if there is some appeals process available to the fired detective (and the demoted former-LT).
ETA: Indeed. KSL reports
Also, in a bit of sad news, the reserve police officer / full-time truck driver who was the victim in the crash, the victim that Nurse Wubbels was arrested for protecting, passed away a couple of weeks ago.