Yeah, this is what I think now, too (not counting someone with an actual rare medical reason, or a minor under the vax control of their parents).
It is most certainly not political. None of the arguments for doing this are about trying to hurt Republicans or help Democrats. They’re all about fairness and morality. The argument is about whether it is fair for those who got vaccinated to die because someone who refused to get vaccinated is taking up resources. It is asking whether those who put other people first should get treatment before those who put their own selfish desires first. It is about whether realizing that you’ll get treatment priority will encourage hesitant people to bite the bullet.
I initially was going to say that it didn’t matter, and we should treat everyone. But then I imagined a situation where this would be relevant, where my dad is sick and he can’t get into the hospital because all the beds are full of people who refused to get vaccinated. Even though he actually followed the guidelines and got vaccinated as soon as he was eligible, he could wind up dying while someone who wouldn’t put up with a minor inconvenience to reduce the risk for everyone gets to make it. I would be livid. I wouldn’t want that.
But every person denied treatment is someone’s relative. How can I tell them they must put up with that which I would abhor? I can’t just do that. I can’t say that, if it were my dad, I would want him treated, but tell someone else they should have to watch their family member die.
If there wasn’t this lack of resources, then it wouldn’t be an issue, But there is, and the antivaxxers and antimaskers are the ones who created it. Should they get the benefit of treatment that, by their own actions, they are depriving to others?
Is that the only moral issue? No. I mentioned the other side in my previous post. But I utter reject any claim that any of this is political. And I reject trying to compare this to racist shit that happened in the past.
While I think it would be fair to treat vaccinated patients first, I also think that the triage would be a nightmare. I’m hearing many stories of burnout in medical folks, having to verify vaccination status might be the last straw for more. Plus, they are so busy and resources are stretched so thin that they would have to go by what the patient or family said instead of testing for antibodies.
Didn’t that happen to your mother? It’s late, I could be misremembering, but I clearly remember feeling outrage when a long-time poster shared that his mother couldn’t get a bed due to COVID.
Pretty simple:
- patient presents with covid symptoms, needs hospitalization.
- Is there room in the hospital? If yes, then normal procedures apply
- If no, then - is patient vaxxed? Yes or no.
- If yes, then normal procedures apply
- If no, then assign patient to a palliative care bed in the garage or hallway, and give them comfort relief, with no oxygen or other measures. Let them die with dignity, as they chose this.
This is true, simplistic arguments to the contrary notwithstanding. When they’re gasping for breath or unconscious, determining vaccination status is difficult. Also expecting health care professionals to stand by and watch as a patient dies in agony of something that’s treatable places an unacceptable burden on said professionals.
Who is expecting healthcare professionals to stand by?
The point is, if you have two people dying but can treat only one, how do you decide who to help?
If you can treat both then by all means treat both.
Yeah, if you have two people dying at the same time, and can only treat one, sure. But that’s rarely how it actually goes down, though. Struggling to breath? The hospital’s never so full that something can’t be attempted, like giving oxygen and bronchodilators.
Besides, the plan as outlined was for hospitals full and diverting, where it all becomes irrelevant anyway.
Maybe…this COVID surge seems to have come with unusual problems.
I wonder (really asking) if the COVID issue is not different?
We all understand triage and, usually, it is used in a very temporary situation. On a battlefield where the battle is over in a few hours or even days or a big accident like a train crash.
But what do you (hospital staff) do when you know you will have your ER overwhelmed for weeks?
Sure, if you have one bed free and an anti-vaxx patient walks in you can give them that bed. It is probably rare that anti-vaxx and vaxx patient walk in simultaneously and you get a choice of who gets that one bed.
But what about the anti-vaxx patient coming in and you KNOW other emergency patients will follow in short order? If you give the anti-vaxx patient that one bed you know there is no room for the next one (whether it be COVID or a car accident or a heart attack). As shown just above with oxygen supplies running out rationing can be on the table.
Keep in mind you are working in an overwhelmed ER and have every reason to think the patients will keep coming in at an alarming rate.
Is it wrong to consider that?
It is very simple, except if I’m not vaxxed what is going to stop me from lying about it? What will stop my relatives from lying about it? What if I am unconscious or unable to breath? Will you assume that I’m vaxxed or unvaxxed?
The only way to be sure is blood work, which would be more work for the medical staff and more drain on resources.
Standing back and watching “second” class people die certainly won’t do anything to help the medical staff’s mental health either.
I think it would be fair to treat vaccinated patients first, I just think it would be a pretty unworkable situation.
This!
Take it out of the hands of the hospital. Have insurance companies deny coverage* if you are not vaccinated (which is reasonable…my fire insurance discounts my fee if I have working smoke detectors installed). Many anti-vaxx people are also opposed to universal health care so seems especially appropriate.
Then see how quickly the hospitals institute an in-take procedure to make sure they get paid.
Yay free market! 
*Or, raise their rates. Costing these people money seems to be the one thing they truly care about.
Two problems I see:
-
Don’t regulations require hospitals to provide life-saving treatment regardless of insurance coverage?
-
COVID patients lying on gurneys in hallways and garages mean they’re not being isolated and would endanger others.
I’m not sure how it is in most jursidictions, but in mine, there are electronic medical records that will have the proof about who is vaccinated (or not). Where I am, all vaccination records for everybody for vaccinations have been put into a database, and the Covid vaccinations were just added to this. When anybody goes to the hospital, doctors have access to your electronic medical records, prescriptions, prior history, etc. which is a Very Good Thing.
IIRC hospitals MUST accept anyone in an emergency and stabilize them regardless of ability to pay. But they need not keep such patients indefinitely and will dump them onto public hospitals at the first opportunity.
I could be very wrong, but I think that if someone makes it to an emergency room, they will be treated no matter their ability to pay. I think that’s written into a law somewhere, so it might just be local.
I think that hitting them in the wallet is pretty effective (Remember, the first time hubs got COVID, it cost him 2600 bucks. It was going to cost 2800 the second time, so he got jabbed instead.) and agree that getting the insurance companies involved would be a great idea.
I just don’t think that forcing ER staff to make those sort of decisions is the best way to implement the process.
OTOH, I think that we should look at separate hospitals for vaccinated and un-vaccinated. The un-vaccinated hospitals could be staffed by anti-vaxxers who will happily treat their un-vaxed patients to the latest woo medicine in the books.
Us vaxxed folks can be treated by vaxxed staff who believe in science.
As to your point about dumping them off on public hospitals, they have to treat anyone as well.
In addition to palliative care, surround the area in the parking garage with plastic sheets and positive ventilation. Should be relatively simple to make a quarantine palliative care covid ward on level 3 of a parking structure. The patients won’t be staying there long. You could also drive the morgue trucks right up to the back door!
What is an “emergency” though?
If you are carted in to the ER and are dying they must treat you.
If you walk in because you do not feel well but are not actually dying then no, they do not have to treat you (I don’t think). Otherwise you could walk-in knowing you have cancer and will die in six months and demand they treat you.
I suspect most COVID patients are in the latter group.
Sure, treat them, but if there is no more room available, then they get the bare minimum of comfort care. Sorry, but the hospital is full, and care is being given to those who agreed to societies rules of how to behave.
I think that’s not the case out here. According to some ER nurses I have known over the years, you will be seen. You might have to wait for 10 hours before being seen, but you will be seen even if its just a hangnail or hangover.
I like my plan better than yours. It wouldn’t be that hard to implement and wouldn’t take up valuable parking spaces.