FormerMarineGuy, I don’t think your issue is with Chinese/Asian people or people who like to bargain, it’s with analytical types who want to use price as a a starting point for comparison, while you are trying to give them a comparison based on features/performance. There seems to be a number of dopers who have responded with the same kind of feeling (I don’t care about the other stuff, just tell me how much first and when I decide it’s in the budget, we can compare trim levels) I had the same kind of problem at a Ford dealership a few weeks ago. The salesman just wanted to point out features and horsepower and whatnot and “what I saw myself driving”, when the only thing I was really interested in discussing was the lease terms/trade-in value/financing. The subtle differences between the various trim levels of the Ford Focus just didn’t interest me, and in any case I’ve already done side by side feature comparisons on the internet and probably knew more about it than he did. There was a lot of talking past each other.
Why am I reminded of the haggling scene in “Life of brian” all of a sudden?
First of all, THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO RESPONDED TO THIS THREAD. This is really helping me a lot. The purpose of me starting this thread was to help me understand the culture more, to kill my ignorance on this matter. I have NOTHING wrong with anyone getting a good deal, as in my business I am spending someone else’s money.
My point was that while most people look for a good deal, it seemed that Asians just wanted to see which car they got the better deal on, which one had more money off, etc. For example, if they could get 3k off of a 100,000 car or 1k off of a 34,000 car, the 100,000 car sounded like a better deal. Once again, I actually enjoy negotiating and the rush of the sale. If I didn’t, I would do something else, as I am qualified.
This thread was to hear what other people said about this practice. I know more people would prefer to get a tooth pulled to buying a car. I have been to many Asian countries (I was in the Marines for ten years-if you knew my last name, I could definitely be googled, but I will save that for a thread that it might pertain to), and it is something I never realized. I have been to marketplaces, where bargaining is commonplace, but never the way it seemed, just object to object, asking price, even if it is not the object you desire, want, or need.
More information is looked forward to, as once again, I am only doing this to understand a culture that apparently I do not know enough about.
I think one thing you have to start with is that when it comes to bargaining, there is no “Asian culture.” If you were a Marine, good chance you were in Japan/Okinawa and noticed that bargaining isn’t the norm there anymore (atleast for the new generation). And Asian-Americans don’t really bargain much more than any other [insert here]-Americans, do they?
But anyways, yes, my father would be one of those you would be referring to. I remember staying at a Ford dealership from afternoon to well past closing time and in the end we got a price pretty near invoice (this was a time when checking the invoice on the internet wasn’t yet popular). He and my mother are the kind who will rip into me whenever I make a big purchase without a good discount (to them). They like to compare their buys with friends and family who make similar purchases and one-up them. It’s nothing offensive in their circle from what I’ve seen.
As someone mentioned before, it really is a part of some Chinese cultures where how well you can work a deal is a sign of how capable you are. When you break it down, it’s no different in American culture in that you want to feel proud from ‘earning’ a great deal. The difference seem to be that Americans are more likely to see high-pressure haggling as demeaning to themselves, something not as many Chinese are likely to do. You take away that disincentive to haggle, and naturally you’ll get lots of haggling.
Anyways, my dad doesn’t haggle much anymore ever since I showed him the dark magicks of the interweb. Now he spends all his time price matching, returning an item when he finds it for cheaper, and all sorts of other crazy stuff. And in the end, he really is getting better deals in this fashion than with the old ways. I imagine if the immigrant Asians who come to this country knew about all this and really trusted making a deal without seeing a face, they’d drop a lot of the haggling, too. My dad always said he hated haggling at the dealerships cuz it was pretty tough on him, but he just felt he had to. And since we were an immigrant family that starting out working in sweatshops over here, I understand where he was coming from.
Hope that helped. And oh, on that last part of “a lack of understanding on how to negotiate,” hey, are they getting good deals in the end? Cuz if they are, seems like they understand just fine. 
In Asia, I had no problem haggling for expensive things. Despite what people say, it’s not hard, yes it can be fun, and Westerners can get into the groove easily enough. What I did have a problem with, however, was things like spending five minutes of my time haggling over something like a piece of fruit.
While working as a commercial sales rep for SecurityLink, I encountered an Asian fellow who was buying a new property which he wished to have outfitted with CCTV and burglary/fire protection. We had dealt with him in his present location for a few years. When my first number was put on the table, he acted as though I’d spoken an obscenity involving his daughter. While I’m not adverse to a good honest haggle, this guy was a b**l-breaker. He kept trying to drop the install price, and I was willing to do that for an extended contract term-recurring revenue being where the money is made, but he wouldn’t go for that, either. He kept telling me, “I’m a good customer!” Sorry, but you’re not. You buy something once every five years, give everyone grief when doing so, and otherwise pay your monthly bill. That’s an average customer. Finally I stood up, shook his hand, and said I wasn’t able to serve his needs, and wished him well. Then he went totally batsh*t.
I don’t agree that you need to sweettalk your car salesman by asking what he thinks about the local football team. I’m not going to hang out with him. And I don’t believe I need to be excessively concerned with his feelings when he is using a sales system designed to take as much of my money as possible.
You might be interested in this article about a journalist who goes undercover as a car salesman. His experience with different ethnic behaviours are on pages 4 & 5
I remember reading that, and the OP did make it pop up in my mind. Partly because of the next line after the one you quoted:
Depends on your Asian. I hate haggling. My mom loves it.
She wouldn’t even let my dad go with her to the dealership. She tells me that as a 4’ 11’’ Asian woman, the salesmen figure they have a pigeon. They always make sure to remain standing so that they tower over her. They give her a lot of crap about why the price can’t come down. But it does and she always gets her car at her price.
Couldn’t say myself if its just Asians. I always figured that in a lot of countries, the few pennies that you save at a market by smart haggling may come in handy when times get really tough.
As an aside my best friend says that working in a Korean-owned jewelry store was one of his most memorable experiences. A particular Jewish diamond merchant would come in and they would do battle. The two sounded like you were trying to take food right from the mouths of their children.
First off welcome to the dope. Hang around and enjoy.
Well this strikes me as a no brainer.
- Show them the $34,000 with a grand off
- Show them the $100,000, and offer 3,000 off.
- Profit!
The first time my (Chinese) wife and I went to the grocery store together, she was trying to haggle the price of a watermelon at the checkout. I explained to her that with the exceptions of cars and houses that isn’t usually how thing work around here. Now she just looks out for good deals while shopping retail, but her negotiating skills still get a good workout at yard/garage sales, flea markets, home shopping and car shopping. There is a reason we have three new cars and a new house. Her job lets her fine tune her haggling skills at work in two languages. To tell the truth, I feel sorry for the guy who sells her her next car, as we could possibly leave the dealership with his car, the car she wanted in the first place, and still not be over her budget. The woman is good.
I am sorry if this sounds discriminatory in any way, but why is it that when I go to a car dealership, I know as soon as I walk in the door it is not going to be an ‘easy’ sale? Why do salesman act insulted when I want to negotiate the purchase of a car that we both know is offered at 20% over what they could really sell it for, and then to add insult to injury, they add BS processing fees and gadgets I don’t need?
Not to discriminate against car salesmen, you understand.
No, this is not discrimination against the salesman. Personally, I hate going to car dealerships. I recently bought a new car for my mother-in-law and had to go through the crazy process of negotiating. I even told the salesman and manager that I sell cars, let’s make it quick. But they still lied to me, etc. I ended up going home, shopping on the internet, and got the best deal in a day.
First of all, there is not a 20% markup in any cars anymore. The internet changed that. Some dealers have rebates, but that is different. As far as where I work, there is a 7% markup on cars, not counting holdback. But we do not give up holdback here. A lot of the discounts depend on the market and supply and demand. We do not discount any new model here for at least the first year of introduction. Some cars demand a market adjustment of around $10,000 over sticker.
Dealerships depend on profit, and most people enjoy a good negotiation. To prove this, look at the history of Saturn. When they went to a fixed price, it was a temporary good thing, but afterwards when they went to a non-fixed price, sales went up.
Shop on the internet. You can talk to three or four dealers and go back and forth. But if you actually want the salesperson to earn your business, treat them nice, and they will do what they can for you. They are not want to fight for a deal if they do not really think you are buying. And before someone reading this starts to say “it is not fair that they don’t give us the best price right away”, think about it. No matter what price they give you, you are always going to want more. So it goes both ways.
Now, we are off of the thread. But if someone wants to open a new thread on anything with this matter, I am more than willing to talk. I know all of the tricks, and am very good what I do.
I’ll speak from my experiences in India. First of all, Indians expect to bargain over everything and anything except large expensive items. The idea that in America you bargain over the price of a car but you can’t bargain over the price of onions at the grocery store is extremely amusing.
Second, the manner of bargaining as I’ve observed in India is an attitude of hostility and deprecation. The buyer approaches the seller and immediately starts off with the the attitude of “So how much are you going to rob me for for this sorry crap you’ve got on display? Don’t think you can fool me, you lowlife!” And then hearing the opening bargaining position, moves directly to: “Why do you want to waste my time? Do you want a sale or not? Be serious here with me. I’m no tourist. Give me a starting price that doesn’t make me laugh.”
The “What’s the discount?” might just be a very toned down version of this.
No, that’s not what’s not fair. What’s not fair is two people walking into the same dealer, and buying the same exact car, and one of them pays less because he’s a “better negotiator.” It’s silly and unfair, and it’s one of the many reasons I will never buy a new car. I don’t begrudge you your job, and if people actually enjoy that game, good for them. But it ain’t the way I do business.
Off the thread topic here, but dealers make more profit on a pre-owned car over a new car, FYI.
You’re dealing with people from a different culture, so it really shouldn’t be a suprise that they would not act like you. It really isn’t unexpected that what is common in one culture is not the same in another.
I’ve lived in Japan for 18 years, most of which time have involved sales or marketing or both. Where people get into trouble is expecting that people from other cultures will act the same as themselves, or that when people from other cultures act in a particular manner, that this means that these actions stem from the same causes as people from your own culture.
You have to learn the cultural code words. Japanese rarely give a direct “no” because that would cause the other person to lose face. Americans often feel that not giving a direct “no” is a sign of evasiveness or weakness. When I was first in sales here, I’d push people to say “no” even though they were giving me their verson of “no.”
Since meeting my Taiwanese wife, I’ve been really surprised at their directness about money. Her sister gave me a tie clip for a wedding gift, and it was an eye-opener to hear my wife and her sister discuss how much the gift cost. This would be unthinkable as an American, and certainly never done in Japan, but is common among ethnic Chinese. (Another major mistake is to asume that all Asians are similar. People who know that the French are very different than the Germans will talk about Asians as if all countries were the same.)
Big difference between Japanese and Chinese. Chinese don’t like to take things slow, as you suggest - it’s pretty much a get-straight-down-to business type of culture. Personal touch isn’t of much importance either. It’s considered strange that anyone would pay attention to someone who isn’t family or someone useful for doing business with. (It may be of significance that the introductory pleasantry which unites so many disparate cultures - the handshake - is not “native” to Chinese culture.) The Japanese, on the other hand, are more indirect - one of the effects of which is a slower pace of doing business.
That was my ignorance speaking. Thank you for correcting me about Chinese not ‘taking it slow’.