Martin, welcome to SDMB.
A post a little earlier listed some quotes from the Quarn. You said they were taken out of context. What is the context they were made in?
Greeting, martin_ibn_martin! Peace be unto you.
I’m curious, what brought you to Islam? What inspired you to convert. What faith (if any) were you before the conversion?
The context is one of the times they were Revealed. The ones that haters love to quote were Revealed during a defensive war that turned offensive to ensure survival. It happened that the enemies consisted of Polytheists along with a couple of Jewish Arab tribes and I think some Christians. The words “Jew”, Pagan", and Christian" were used as identifiers for those groups.
Martin
I can only respond by saying that I believe that many in the Islamic world have dropped the ball. They are screwing up.
Clear enough?
I doubt that even Lumpkin could find a verse advocating the use of flaming tires:D
As for my skin thickness, I’ll give it a try. I don’t claim to be a scholar, nor do I have all of the scriptures memorized. I will do the best I can with what I have, and Inshallah will help to change some attitudes.
Martin
At last! One that I am definitely “qualified” to answer.
Long story, I’ll endeavor to be brief.
15 years ago, at the age of 14, I looked up from the hymnal in the local Congregational Church with the realization that I didn’t believe this stuff. I come from a relaxed family, religion-wise, and had been attending on my own since age 8 or so.
I spent some time seeking, exploring MANY facets of belief, trying to find something that resonated. Most of high school was spent messing around with neo-paganism. After that I explored my ancestral connection to Native American ways, mainly Lakota Souix ceremony. I dithered around in the UU church for a bit, occasionally returning to Paganism in one form or another, never satisfied with the beliefs or the lack of true fellowship. One day, just after HS graduation, I happened upon a book in a local used book store. “Toward The One” by Hazrat Inayat Khan. It is the work of a universalist Sufi, as opposed to those who retain a dedication to Islam, who was spreading his message to the West.
There irt began. I devoured everything I could about Sufism, even picking up a copy of the Qur’an in translation, but the bells never rang. Two years ago,on a whim, I stopped at a mosque. The Imam was very welcoming and gave me a better translation than the one I owned. We spoke a couple more times, then I got absorbed into the everyday problems of life.
9-11-01
Damn!
I knew that what happened was not a product of people following the guidance of the religion, rather acting in spite of it. I felt the need to meet muslims and let them know that there was one American who understood.
I gained some good friends in the Turkish guys who run a pizza joint in town, met some Sudanese and Yemeni brothers at a local mosque, and began visiting for Friday Prayers. I asked more and more questions, puzzled more and more foreign guys with what I knew, and soon I felt pulled closer.
One day, without planning, I walked into the masjid and I knew it was time. After Salaat, three of us got up and made my Shahada, Declaration of Faith.
That’s about it.
I still have an interest in sufism, am talking with a few different people from different traditions, but I am not much of a joiner. I try to learn what I can from everyone I can.
Martin
Just so y’all are aware of the circles I travel in…
Marwan from The Sudan sometimes comes off as a touch chauvanistic, but has one of the warmest hearts I know. He doesn’t talk to his grandmother or aunts because they went back on a promise not to mutilate his little sister when she came of age. FGM is a pre-islamic practice from Pharonic Egypt that the Prophet tried to discourage.
Abdul Ghani, a Yemeni, has been trying for years to convince his wife to leave the house, learn English, and get a job if she wants to. She is in deep mourning for her father, and really doesn’t want to do anything. I think many Yemeni sisters are like that. Because she chooses seclusion, he works 80 hours a week to support her and several other relatives, including a grandparent of two, who live with them.
The Turks are my favorite of all. They are just like Americans. strong, confident, modern, loving, generous, and a bit cocky. We would do well to make friends with that nation. A people like that won’t be down for long. Ahmet, who delivers the pizza, is having trouble with his government. Evidently, he was reported to them for living in a dorm with other muslims and keeping regular prayers. If you are a Turk, going to school in the US on government money, you have to pretend to ba an absolute secularist or you will be reported on, harassed, and possibly lose your funding.
Thank you Mr. Ataturk!
More later, perhaps
Whoah!
Good point and a bit clueless in about equal measure.
The two are quite different points, and your saying don’t make it so. One is the knowledge that someone else’s fate is ultimately out of your hands. We can only share the truth, live with compassion, and improve ourselves. I will let you know that I am not Quranic literalist. I believe that there are passages that Allah uses to inform us that there are parables, metaphor, and allegories in The Scripture, (Suratul-Noor:35-39) and sometimes a metaphor can convey a greater truth than a simple declaration of literal fact.
I feel that the descriptions of Heaven and Hell can be seen as the attempts to convey in inadequate human language just how absolutely cool it is to be in the Presence, or how much of a bummer it is to be denied that Presence because you willfully rejected faith.
Another point. The Arabic word for non-believer, Kaafir, actually means “one who rejects faith”. If you hear the Truth, understand it because it was presented properly, (very important)realize it was the Truth, and STILL reject it, you are a kaafir and don’t get to hang out with God once you reach your expiration date.
This is a point of some contention between some like myself, and the literalists.
Allah Hafiz (Allah is the Knower of all things)
Martin
Sorry if that last post meandered a bit. I am sleepy.
I suspect I’ll read it tomorrow and wonder what I was trying to convey.
martin
—One is the knowledge that someone else’s fate is ultimately out of your hands.—
As I noted, there is a difference to me whether or not one does the violence or simply approves of it. But morally, I still have a hard time seeing the distinction. I simply don’t see “willfully rejecting the truth” as legitimate grounds for allowing or causing suffering, particularly in the abscence of any ontological justification as to why the person is ultimately responsible, from the perspective of the creator, for the sort of person they are.
So while the literalists concern me a lot more, I don’t necessarily think they are much worse than people who simply believe that the God does it… and they still like and approve of him. Indeed, the latter group, for some reason, is much more likely to give me the willies. It’s the difference between being a Nazi and voting for the policies of Nazism. Sure, the guards carry out the acts… but the others support them.
OK, you said “I knew that what happened was not a product of people following the guidance of the religion, rather acting in spite of it. I felt the need to meet muslims and let them know that there was one American who understood.” You might ‘know’ that they’re not real Muslims, but how are non-Muslims supposed to tell the difference between Real Muslims and Evil False Muslims? If I read the Quarn, I can certainly find support for the suicide-bomber types, and there are plenty of people around who will tell me that your interpretation of Islam is flat-out wrong. Since there’s (AFAIK) no support in the text itself for picking and choosing which passages are valid and which ones are invalid for whatever reason, why should I use your criteria instead of either taking the whole book literally or using someone else’s?
Also, since according to your (and apparently most moderate Muslim’s) beliefs the terrorist ‘Muslims’ are not really followers of the faith, aren’t they directly attacking Islam through their actions and shouldn’t moderate Muslims in general be doing something about them? On one hand, it’s routine to hear statements like “The Lesser Jihad is when you take up arms in dire circumstances. War in Islam is strictly regulated and the only real reason for war is self-defense, or the defense of Islam or Muslims from attack.”, yet I don’t really think the efforts by anyone in the Muslim community to do anything about the terrorist Muslims would qualify as Lesser Jihad. I don’t see even harsh language, much less taking up of arms.
And one more: you state “It wasn’t until 12 years after the Prophet first began preaching that Allah gave permission to pick up arms.” Why doesn’t Allah simply clarify his position on who should pick up arms and against who today and wrap up the whole controversey? He didn’t seem to have a problem with giving direct instructions in the past, so why not now?
If you bother to study the Quran as a whole, it is quite clear. You don’t hear harsh language because you aren’t presented with such my our impartial media. Good Muslims are boring. bad Muslims get ratings and showing them advances US foreign policy.
Go visit a lcoal masjid on friday and ask about terrorism. You’ll get your unequivocating statements.
As for your last question, I can’t speak for Allah’s stance on current events. Ask a shi’i mullah. They are believed to be a continuance of divine guidance in interpreting and presenting The Scriptures.
Or, just meet more muslims!
Martin
Here’s my question, do you think it takes a long time for people of Islamic faith to intergrate into a non-muslim society, If yes, why?
And here’s mine.
What does the Koran say about the role of religion in the running of government? Is there a comparable passage to “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s”?
Hey Martin! Welcome to the boards!
There have been some great posts thus far, and I find your exploring of different religions commendable. My question is what books would you recommend for someone who wishes to learn more about Sufism? I know you alrady mentioned one book, “Toward The One” by Hazrat Inayat Khan. Are there any other introductory books you would recommend? I would also like to know if you recommend any books about Islam in general.
That depends upon the individual and their homeland. If they are a madrassa student from Pakistan, the actual origin of the Taliban, then they might have a tougher time than a geneticist from Jordan.
I have no personal perspective on this, being an original American mongrel, but can only comment upon what I observe.
Secular education, something very important to most muslims, can be a vaccine against fanaticism and can aid in cultural integration. Most muslims I know, one wouldn’t be able to tell until hearing their accents that they are anything but Americans. Usually they could pas for Hispanic or some other standard variety Hyphenated-American.
We are everywhere.
And we are peaceful:D
Martin
My next-door neighbours are Muslim; I was chatting to their kids in the garden one Saturday not long ago and they mentioned that they were going to the mosque later - I asked a few very gentle questions out of genuine intertest, but they seemed a little cagey and eventually made an excuse and left; might my curiosity have offended them?
That’s an unusual reaction, unless they have experienced some problems in the past. Not my experience at all. Perhaps they just didn’t feel confident enough to present things properly and didn’t know how to express it.
Martin
Then can you explain how these millions of people manage to read the Quran and come to different conclusions than you? Allegedly “Islam is a religion of peace”, yet no one has yet provided a means for me to determine which are real Muslims and which are fake. This isn’t especially specific to Islam, plenty of Christians also try to play the ‘if they do good they’re Real Christians, but if they do something bad then they weren’t Real Christians all along’ game.
Oh please. Shortly after 9-11, there were all kinds of Muslim community leaders on air, in the papers, etc. And all of them said pretty much ‘you ignorant rednecks are going to commit hate crimes against us and racial profile us, we’re going to fight it, Islam is a religion of peace, oh, and I guess 911 was bad but you’re bad for the hate crimes you’re about to commit’. There was a whole lot more condemnation of non-Muslim Americans for the wave of hate crimes we were supposedly about to commit than there was of the hijackers, which leads me to believe that organized Islam doesn’t really care all that much about the Bad/Fake Muslims when you get down to it.
Which doesn’t really anser the question at all; why isn’t there a lesser Jihad being waged against the Bad/Fake Muslims instead of just unequivocating statements in private contexts? I see a lot more whining about “racial profiling” than I do condemnation, much less organized action against, Bad/Fake Muslims from the Good Muslim community. Is there a Fatwah or other lesser religious condemnation of the Bad/Fake Muslims from the Good Muslims anywhere?
So, you don’t see any conflict between the fact that you believe that Allah has come down to personally provide guidance to people in the past, and the fact that he apparently can’t be bothered to comment on anything now?
Given that definition, how is that possible to be an unbeliever?
I mean, if the Truth is explained adequately to me, and I have internalized it as such and understand it to be True (assuming for a moment), how could I reject that Truth? The only way to do so is if I am somehow unable to comprehend that it is Truth (in which case, it was never really internalized), or for me to be delusional or mentally ill in some way, in which case, how can I be held responsible for being a “rejecter” of the faith?
It seems that one might be hard pressed to find such a rejecter, and that if one finds a kaafir, one might have to alter the above definition to make room for the unbeliever who was actually found.
I’ve posed this question in other contexts to other religions who have similar beliefs regarding Hell. I’m still hoping for an answer that I can “internalize.”
In response to my question about the relatively low ‘blasphemy’ threshold vis-a-vis comments about Muhammud, you said
Clear, yet …incredibly unsatisfying.