Ask another muslim guy

Great Debates
101

Well, he started a thread to field questions about Islam and, presumedly, his views/experiences. What we’ve received so far is little more than quotes from the Qu’ran. It’s somewhat akin to a cheap program wherein you type a question, and based on keywords a pre-programmed answer is offered. I’ve seen clearer answers using a Magic-8 Ball[sup]TM[/sup].
As mentioned earlier by some of idolotry, Christianity forbids it as well. Idolotry of God. An image of Jesus is perfectly acceptable as He isn’t God.

If the OP ever comes back, I have a couple of questions.

First, it seems widely beleived that a Muslim man can divorce his wife by making an oral declaration.
a) Is this true?
b) If so, what does a woman have to do to initiate a divorce?
c) Is this stricly Shariah law? Or is it commonly accepted in Muslim-dominated countries?

Second, regarding fatwahs. For what they are, the ones most hear about are the death sentences. (Salmon Rushdie for example.) Are fatwahs to be carried out by all Muslims? Or just those that follow the Imam that declares it? What is the power of a fatwah in regards to Muslims that aren’t a member of the Mosque that has declared it. Are the Muslims that work for my company, for example, required to kill him if able?

I suspect the OP won’t be here to respond based on how long it’s been since he’s checked in, but if anyone else can shed some light on these issues, I’d appreciate it.

102

I didn’t know you were a fellow Unitarian!

103

Well, it’s called the Holy Trinity, for a reason. 3 parts, one of which is God. No idols of God. Some may see it as hairsplitting, but there ya go.

And damnit, I still read your namd a Quodgop. WTF? :smack:

104

DUFFER, respectfully, your brand of Christianity is hardly universal.

Actually, the more common Christian party line is that the Trinity is made up of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit). The Trinity as a whole is God, each part being one aspect or iteration of the same, single God: “For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” (1 John 5:7 [KJV])

To most Christian sects, idolatry to worshipping an image of God, not just creating one. A picture of Jesus is fine not because Jesus isn’t God (or Lord), but because you’re not praying to the picture or worshipping it. Some Christian religions are more touchy about this than others; One criticism fundamentalist Christians have with Catholicism is the belief that the Catholic use of statues and pictures crosses the line into idolatry.

But the Godhood or lack thereof of Jesus has nothing to do with it.

105

Well, that’s certainly a different view of the Trinity. Is that viewpoint endorsed by any major Trinitarian Christian religions? That Jesus is not God? :eek:

Color me confused.

106

If a group says that Jesus is not God, they pretty much put themselves outside Trinitarian theology, (although we can still wrangle over how Christian they might be).

107

The way I’ve been taught and understand it, is the Trinity is a 3-part deal. The Father (God), the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit (soul? so many ways to interpret it).

The Trinity is a core beleif. I apologize if I don’t spend 80 hours explaining bit by bit every aspect of it in the way I understand it. And if I’m wrong in what I believe then please continue to tell me I’m wrong.

The Trinity is central to Catholocism. However, the idolotry is specific to God. I have to think that if Catholocism included Jesus in the strictest sense as God, than we wouldn’t have so many Crucifixes hanging in Church. Nor would the Pope have one on his hiking stick. (That’s what I thought it was when I was a kid.)

God and Jesus are 2 parts of the Trinity. They combine (in simplified terms) to make one along with the Holy Ghost. But those are still 3 parts of a whole. Keep in mind, Christianity is based on Judaism, from which the Ten Commandments are derived. Jews accept Jesus as a Prophet (as do Muslims), but not the Savior. So when taking into account the law “Thou shalt make no graven image of the Lord”, we’re talking about God.

Jesus, being part of the Trinity, is in sense equal to God in this sense. But He’s part of the Trinity because He’s the Son of God. He is considered Lord in a way, but he isn’t God. Maybe it would be easier to describe Jesus as the representative of Christians to God. Kind of like a lobbyist to simplify it. A really effective lobbyist since the boss is His dad.

I’d feel guilty for saying that, but I’m Catholic so I usually feel guilty anyway. :smiley: I’d worry I’ll burn in Hell for saying it, but I’ve been a member here too long to worry too much.

Anyway, idolotry in itself is generally limited to God. In the Trinity, all 3 are equal, but God is the one that can’t be idolized. So while a Crucifix on my wall is OK, equality does not extend to hanging an image of God on the wall.

I didn’t mean for this to go so long, but I’m hoping it does just a bit to clarify.

And why the hell am I defending my beleif in a thread started by a Muslim that doesn’t show up to answer any questions he asked for? :confused:

108

So, you believe that Catholics hold the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel to be idolatrous?

109

Yup, you’re right. The Pope is full of shit!

Seriously, I got nothing. i’ll renounce my faith.

110

Well, I kinda think so, but that’s the ex-Catholic in me being snotty. :smiley:

111

I’m not going to hijack this thread with an explanation of Christian Trinitarian theology, but strictly from the perspective of promoting the Straight Dope[sup]®[/sup], I will point out that the following is not true:

Some Jews look on Jesus as a nice itenerant preacher who had some interesting things to say, but whose followers made a mess of the whole thing, some Jews look on Jesus as an itenerant preacher who pushed over the edge into heresy, (and whose followers made a mess of the whole thing), and some Jews pretty much ignore Jesus altogether, (while noting that his followers made a mess), but the idea the Jews look on Jesus as any sort of a prophet is strictly a Christian fantasy. It is simply not true (outside a few Messianic Jews who are not held in high esteem by the rest of the Jewish community*).

*(Excluding completely the Christian “Jews for Jesus” group that Jews despise as being nothing more than an organization of Christians created to lure nice Jewish kids away from the faith.)

112

(For a demonstration of Trinitarian theology, check out the posts by grimpen and Polycarp, in the recent thread please explain the Christian Holy Trinity. (Other posters provide some interesting explorations of ideas, but the accepted theology is provided by those two.) A search on “trinity” in the thread titles of the SDMB will turn up several other discussions, as well.)

(duffer, you may just be having a bit of trouble with your choice of words, but your statements, as posted, are heresy. :wink: )

113

I first heard the idea “Jesus was a prophet” from the rabbi, on my first visit to a synagogue as a kid. It was at Park Synagogue in Shaker Heights, to be specific. Was he saying that only because his visitors were Christian and he thought that was what they expected to hear? I don’t know.

114

The linked thread does a great job of explaining the Trinity tangent (so this thread doesn’t get hijacked all the way to Cuba), but I’d also just add, re the Jews:

Some (many?) conservative or fundamentalist Jews believe Christianity is idolatrous not because of the graven images or lack thereof, but because they interpret the whole Trinity thing to mean Christians actually worship three gods (or, at least, some grouping that certainly is more than one god), and therefore conclude that Christianity is a polytheistic religion, not a monotheistic religion. Mathematically, you can see their issue, since 1+1+1 generally equals 3, not 1.

This would not be a legitimate concern if these doctrinaire Jewish people understood the Trinity to be one God, plus a couple other persons/things who are not God and not subject to worship. But it’s not, and they are correct in concluding that it’s not. The issue they raise is based on the traditional understanding of the Trinity. Your understanding which would be much easier to understand and accept.

115

duffer, since you claim to be a Catholic, I’d recommend you read the Athanasian creed, which is accepted as authoritative by the Church, and well explains its beliefs about the Trinity. Notably, it states that “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God”.

116

Don’t we have to build a bridge out of him before we can declare him a heretic?