Ask the atheist, 15 year old, male Hoosier.

[Anastasaeon]

@Strinka

For the winter solstice, we don’t use anything electrical for the whole night and we wake up to watch the sunrise. We don’t know about the spring equinox or summer solstice yet. For the fall equinox we burn leaves and one pepper and tomato at sunset.

I am curious about this. Why do you do such a thing? What do you think it does/means/stands for?
If you are an atheist, why would you bother with this “ceremony”? You don’t have to call it religious, but there are many Wiccans out there who would do this same thing. What does it symbolise for you? Why? What is the significance in the changing of the seasons? Why is it worth celebrating?

I’m not trying to be insulting, or using “Wiccan” as a bad name (I’m not Christian, nor will I bite* ) I’m just curious as to why an atheist would acknowledge anything, even the changing of the seasons: what purpose does it serve?

I’m not saying you don’t have a right to celebrate whatever you please, I’m just curious as to the reasons why.

I apologise in advance if any part of my post sounds condescending or ignorant - I am trying to learn, and I didn’t mean it to sound that way.

• • I am not implying that all Christians bite. Some do, but so do some Taoist and Wiccans and Sky Pixies. I just wanted to establish that I had no agenda, and also that I did not bite.

[Marley23]

@Anastasaeon

I am curious about this. Why do you do such a thing? What do you think it does/means/stands for?
If you are an atheist, why would you bother with this “ceremony”?

Not to answer for him, but being an atheist doesn’t bar you from celebrating the seasons. That’s not exactly equivalent to praying.

[Anastasaeon]

@Marley23

Not to answer for him, but being an atheist doesn’t bar you from celebrating the seasons. That’s not exactly equivalent to praying.

I understand that. That’s why I said:

@me

I’m not saying you don’t have a right to celebrate whatever you please, I’m just curious as to the reasons why.

I want to know why. I don’t think it’s anywhere the equivalent of praying or setting up shrines or attending church, let’s make that clear. But what does it mean to an atheist? I am genuinly curious and I want to learn.

[Lobsang]

Not to answer for him either. But celebrating religious holidays is a social habit. I have always recognised the christian holidays that are a tradition and habit in my country. I give people presents, I receive presents, and I eat like a pig for two or three days.

[Marley23]

@Anastasaeon

I want to know why. I don’t think it’s anywhere the equivalent of praying or setting up shrines or attending church, let’s make that clear. But what does it mean to an atheist? I am genuinly curious and I want to learn.

I didn’t mistake your intention. And I don’t do those things, so I can’t answer. I’m just saying there’s an apparent contradiction in the idea of an atheist celebrating a season, but not an actual one.

[Strinka]

@Anastasaeon

I am curious about this. Why do you do such a thing? What do you think it does/means/stands for?
If you are an atheist, why would you bother with this “ceremony”? You don’t have to call it religious, but there are many Wiccans out there who would do this same thing. What does it symbolise for you? Why? What is the significance in the changing of the seasons? Why is it worth celebrating?

I’m going to go off on a bit of a tangent here and tell you the story behind starting to celebrate the winter solstice. Don’t worry, I will come back and answer your questions, but I think it would be good to have the backstory.

Two years and three months ago (December 2002) my parents decided that they didn’t want to bother with a tree, because it would be cumbersome, we’d have to move furniture, we’d be going back to as it was before in two weeks anyway, etc. And while thinking about this, we realized that it was kind of stupid for us to be celebrating Christmas anyway, because we’re not Christian. Because we didn’t want to forgo everything about Christmas (i.e. presents) we decided to celebrate the winter solstice instead. (And the really ironic (sorry if I’m misusing the word) thing is that this last solstice we had a “solstice tree” :rolleyes: ) Based on this it seemed reasonable to celebrate the summer solstice and equinoxes too, just out of consistency.

So basically, it doesn’t symbolize anything; there is no real significance. We just do it have fun.

[Large_Marge]

@Anastasaeon

I want to know why. I don’t think it’s anywhere the equivalent of praying or setting up shrines or attending church, let’s make that clear. But what does it mean to an atheist? I am genuinly curious and I want to learn.

I’m sure it would mean different things to different athiests. I doubt all athiests celebrate the seasons, though I did.

For me, the solstice is a celebration of the Earth. Nature. Science. All that is natural and wonderful and awe-inspiring. I found any time alone in nature to be “equivalent” to prayer for me, perhaps even more meaningful.

[Nic2004]

@Sample_the_Dog

I can understand that. I had much the same reaction to what I was forced to read for church. Absurd and boring.

All I can say is, that changed when I got some distance from it and started diving into it on my own, in the same way I’d dive into any book of mythology, poetry, and tradition.

Granted, much of what was of vital interest to the ancient redactors is dull as dirt. But it turned out that a lot of it began speaking to me in ways I did not expect. To paraphrase Twain, I was surprised how much the old guys had learned.

The easy confidence with which I know another man’s religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.

Mark Twain

There has been only one Christian. They caught and crucified him–early.

Mark Twain

The church is always trying to get other people to reform; it might not be a bad idea to reform itself a little by way of example.

Mark Twain

[Nic2004]

Strinka- I too am an atheist of long standing… many years removed from my teens. I applaud your use of intellect, logic and critical thinking.
The reasons I don’t believe in unicorns is not complex and neither are the reasons I don’t believe in a god (altho they are many). There is nothing to support or suggest the concept when the mythology is stripped away.
I too celebrate the seasons…just not the Santa Claus or Easter Bunny of the Bible. Halloween? Do people celebrate this or not based on their christianity?

Anastasaeon

But what does it mean to an atheist? I am genuinly curious and I want to learn.

I means there’s no boogie man in the closet. It means do the right thing because it is the right thing… not because you’ll burn if you don’t. It means live this life for all it’s worth becasue it’s all you get and the good you do, and the mark you leave is all that will remain so make it good. Atheism is like shedding a wet overcoat. The freedom from the superstitions is freeing.

Imagine there’s no Heaven, it’s easy if you try. No Hell below us, above us only sky.

John Lennon

[Sample_the_Dog]

Nicodemus2004, I would agree that atheism is not complex. I believe that you, Strinka, and I are atheists for much the same reason – which pretty much boils down to Occam’s razor, and the lack of any coherent believable argument for theism.

However, I would caution the younger folks against assuming that religion is, therefore, also equally non-complex.

It is not. And to assume that it is, is to invite a host of misconceptions. The reasons why people believe falsehoods, the mechanisms by which they maintain those beliefs, the ramifications of those beliefs, and the ways in which these beliefs change over time, how they are manipulated by leaders, and how they come to impact our world – these are complicated and often difficult issues.

As a small example, Reagan and Bush-the-Younger have both made important decisions based on misreadings of the Bible. But their theology is not identical, and the gloss of “they were religious” doesn’t shed any light on the matter or help us judge how future candidates might act.

As for scripture – going back to earlier posts – certainly millions of people lead fulfilling and worthwhile lives without reading a word of it. But there’s a reason this stuff has survived. After all, “The Bible” (and there is no one version of it – there are, in fact, many Bibles), just as an example, is a mere fragment of a much larger record. Its history is fascinating in its own right.

These texts – whether Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, or what have you – were not annointed by God… these texts have survived because people continued to find them valuable. Understanding why these survived and others didn’t is one means to insight into history and human nature.

But then again, what does it matter? Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.

[Anastasaeon]

@Strinka

We just do it have fun.

This, I can understand. Simplicity at it’s very shining best. This makes the most sense to me, even though it seems like the most obvious answer. It’s cool.

@Nicodemus2004

Anastasaeon I means there’s no boogie man in the closet. It means do the right thing because it is the right thing… not because you’ll burn if you don’t. It means live this life for all it’s worth becasue it’s all you get and the good you do, and the mark you leave is all that will remain so make it good. Atheism is like shedding a wet overcoat. The freedom from the superstitions is freeing.
John Lennon

This, however, I’m not sure if I understand. People celebrate because they feel threatened? Maybe a Christian can chime in on this one, because now I’m thrown for a loop. I celebrate some things for the same reasons (some atheist, such as Strinka - for fun, or even for the reasons Large Marge listed) do, however, I do not believe in heaven or hell or boogeymen. I do not believe in repurcussions from god(s). However, I am a theist.

Argh. Perhaps I’m asking all the wrong questions? I think I’ve confused myself. I apologise. If anyone can make sense of my post, have at it, otherwise, I’m just going to sit back and read and learn.

[Nic2004]

@Anastasaeon

This, I can understand. Simplicity at it’s very shining best. This makes the most sense to me, even though it seems like the most obvious answer. It’s cool.

This, however, I’m not sure if I understand. People celebrate because they feel threatened? Maybe a Christian can chime in on this one, because now I’m thrown for a loop. I celebrate some things for the same reasons (some atheist, such as Strinka - for fun, or even for the reasons Large Marge listed) do, however, I do not believe in heaven or hell or boogeymen. I do not believe in repurcussions from god(s). However, I am a theist.

Argh. Perhaps I’m asking all the wrong questions? I think I’ve confused myself. I apologise. If anyone can make sense of my post, have at it, otherwise, I’m just going to sit back and read and learn.

**AnastasaeonBut **

what does it mean to an atheist? I am genuinly curious and I want to learn.

I am sorry. I miss read this to ask…What does it mean to BE and atheist? My statement was aimed at that sort of question; they “do the right thing because they feel threatened” Sorry.

[Nic2004]

ARRRGGG! Should read… " I am sorry. I *misread * this to ask…"

[Atheist_Princess]

Hello Strinka,

I’m a 17 yr old female from Brisbane Australia. i’ve been reading this thread and find alot of it to be pointless.

I’ll firstly point out that in Australia, most people couldn’t give a flying crap about religion. Sure, we have churches, Catholics, Christians, Jehovah’s and what have you…but most of celebrate Easter for the chocolate and Christmas for the presents. Who cares about God? Or whatever he/she is being called in various different countries… :wally

And for that matter, what about Greeks and Ancient Romans? Apparently, we were created by this almighty being yet none of it seems to matter until after this guys “son” gets crusified. Why wasn’t he put in a looney bin? I mean face it, his mother was a whore, he was a disillusioned bastard (in every sense of the word). But, what happened to these other countries hey? One day they just landed there? They have been there for thousands of years, both cultures have their own set of different gods. Venus, Aphrodite, Neptune and such were beleived to have controlled different sections of like. Yeah. Whatever. So does that mean that Zues and God are like brothers? And Satan is thrown in there somewhere? Perhaps as a scorned, illegitimate brother?

And Astrology, some people are calling this a religion so while i’m on a role…its all about planets, moons and stuff that really dont make much sense. There are billions of people in the world…divide that by 12 for each of the zodiac signs. Right, so we’ve cut it down to groups of millions. So out of those millions, we’ll say about 50% read their horoscope in a daily newspaper. There are thousands of daily newspapers around the world. But do they have the same predictions? No. And does that mean that I, as a gemini, can look forward to the same fate that all other gemini’s are set for that day…provided they’re reading the same newspaper that is… :smack: :dubious:

Catholics. Dont use contraception. Dont condone abortion. Some Catholic doctor in a country town here refuses to give pill prescriptions. And the chemist next door doesnt sell condoms. People have to travel 45 mins away to have safe sex. Now thats just calling for unwanted pregnancies, teenage unwanted pregnancies and std’s such as AIDS, Chlamidiya, Herpes Virus and such to be quite easily passed around the community like stomach virus. :mad:
I really dont mean to be insulting to those who beleive in “God”, but for “gods” sake, keep it to yourself. Nobody wants to have bible-bashers knocking on the door at 6am on a Sunday morning after being out all night and only dragging their sorry but home half an hour before hand. I celebrate Christmas and my parents buy me gifts. I celebrate Easter and I get Chocolate. I celebrate birthdays and I get both. Sounds pretty good to me…

[Anastasaeon]

@Nicodemus2004

**AnastasaeonBut ** I am sorry. I miss read this to ask…What does it mean to BE and atheist? My statement was aimed at that sort of question; they “do the right thing because they feel threatened” Sorry.

Ahhh! Now it makes more sense to me

Just to set the record straight, since I’m sure much of what I wrote is confusing - I often have questions for atheists, often very simple questions, but I respect and understand the atheist belief (or non-belief, as it is) for the most part. It seems perfectly logical to me to be atheist.
I do find it somewhat sad that there are people out there who would do the right thing because they feel threatened, however, I figure as long as they’re doing the right thing, for whatever reason, it’s not my soul to save, and none of my business. Some people think that’s cold, but I’m not sure why. I like asking an atheist questions, because often the answer is quite simple (though not always). I like to ask my fellow theists questions, too, but I’m often left feeling somewhat confused. Though they have surprised me on occasion. Sometimes both sides of the fence leave me feeling cold, depending on who the person was - sometimes I feel as though I’m being lectured on why I should convert my own beliefs, when I just asked a question.

I apologise for sounding scatterbrained once again. And I ramble.

Sorry for the mild hijack, Strinka, I appreciate your answer to my question. I’m not being sarcastic when I say I think your answer was a bit of poetry. Simple question (though I complicated it up a bit), simple answer. Beautiful. I understand it and respect it. And this might be going against the popular vote, but I am very much a fan of your short, simple answers.

[jsc1953]

@Athiest Princess

Hello Strinka,

I’m a 17 yr old female from Brisbane Australia. i’ve been reading this thread and find alot of it to be pointless…(inane rant snipped

Religious bashing should be done in The Pit. And if you’re going to be an atheist princess, learn to spell it correctly. Unless you’re the most athy princess in Australia.

[Captain_Gutgore_Blooddrink]

Well, I’m a 26 yr old male athiest living in Indiana, although I claim Seattle as my true home, having lived there for 8 years. I went to school here, however, I disown the term Hoosier. I sympathise with you, though, sir. I remember how it was growing up (my parents were/are definately NOT athiests) and going to school. Coming into Jr. High in the early 90’s, there was still a big Satanist scare going on in my small home town, and I managed to get sent to the guidance councelor quite a bit for things I said (I’ve always had a problem keeping my mouth shut about my beliefs, or lack there of) I have no questions for you, but if you want to compare notes, you can shoot me an email.

-Cap’n GG BD

[Nic2004]

Thanks Anastasaeon, you are most gracious. FWIW, I don’t find your questions threatening or you tone sarcastic. I wish more people I have had this discussion with were as willing to have an open discussion without the emotional outburst.
Strinka- Again, well done. And, keep the faith;-}

[Strinka]

I am filled with gratitude. In the first thread in which I’ve been complemented, I’ve been complemented five times! So, thank you to all of you who have.

As to whether religion is complex or not, **Sample_the_Dog **, you’re probably right. It’s just that I’m not particularly interested in religion, so I don’t usually go out of my way to find out things about it.

There haven’t really been any new questions since I last last posted. If anyone has any more feel free to ask. The only question I won’t answer is where I live.

[Nic2004]

@Strinka

I am filled with gratitude. In the first thread in which I’ve been complemented, I’ve been complemented five times! So, thank you to all of you who have.

As to whether religion is complex or not, **Sample_the_Dog **, you’re probably right. It’s just that I’m not particularly interested in religion, so I don’t usually go out of my way to find out things about it.

There haven’t really been any new questions since I last last posted. If anyone has any more feel free to ask. The only question I won’t answer is where I live.

Strinka- Have you read Carl Sagan’s “The Demon-Haunted World” yet. If not, as a fellow Free-Thinker I highly recommend it to you. He is a great mind and does a fine job of laying out critical thinking and I think you might enjoy it. If you get it, I’d love to hear your thoughts after you have read it.
Enjoy.