Ask the atheist psychologist who did ayuahasca yesterday.

[begbert2]

@Royal_Nonesutch

And I suppose that someone clearly needs to tell you that droning on & on about something you have no experience in and have no interest in experiencing in the future, smack dab in the middle of a room full of people who ARE interested in said subject makes you a bore of the highest order.

What, you have no interest in the unique and different?

[QuickSilver]

@Royal_Nonesutch

And I suppose that someone clearly needs to tell you that droning on & on about something you have no experience in and have no interest in experiencing in the future, smack dab in the middle of a room full of people who ARE interested in said subject makes you a bore of the highest order.

Then by all means, please, contribute something interesting. I’ll wait. I’m curious about what that might be.

[Acsenray]

@begbert2

For myself, the reason I’m not curious is because I’m sort of accustomed to how my brain functions, and I don’t particularly see the need to see how it operates while on fire. It’s the same reason I don’t drink alcohol.

The human brain is capable of a wide variety of emotions and experiences, including spiritual feelings and the like. These are all states that the brain can end up in. That a drug can shove the brain into such emotional and cognitive states doesn’t tell me anything more about the universe than I already know; it’s patently clear that people can feel these feelings and I don’t think that their ability to experience such brainstates makes their spiritual beliefs true. That’s my conclusion after giving some thought to the fact that people out there really do genuinely have such experiences, and I’d like to think that I would retain that opinion after some drug kicked me in the head and made me experience those brainstates too.

If I was not able to hold on to my rational conclusions after the experience, I would reasonably conclude that the experience damaged my cognition. I’d rather that not happen.

I agree with this. It seems to me that taking hallucinogenic or other psychoactive substances is just purposely causing your brain to malfunction. It doesn’t tell you anything about the world outside your brain .

So, while on drugs, you might have felt what seemed like the presence of god. Why would you think that means that there is actually a god with a presence to feel? All you’ve done is thrown wrenches into your brain until it thinks it perceives something.

[susan]

It seems to me that taking hallucinogenic or other psychoactive substances is just purposely causing your brain to malfunction. It doesn’t tell you anything about the world outside your brain .

1. What about antidepressants?
2. So you think we can know the world outside our brains?

[begbert2]

@susan

1. What about antidepressants?
2. So you think we can know the world outside our brains?

1. I specifically noted in my post that I’m fine with the way my brain currently functions, which is why I’m satisfied not messing with it. If you’re not fine with how your brain functions, by all means feel free to tweak it. (Just don’t expect anybody else to adjust their opinions of the world based on your brain states one way or the other.)

2. Heck yes. That’s what I have these ‘eye’ things for. They help me locate cookies!

[mandala]

Whether an experience, brought on by any means, is genuinely spiritual or merely hallucinatory, depends on the judgement of an adept - a Guru - who has broad knowledge and experience in such matters. In the Hindu/Buddhist context, no experience, no matter how intense, no matter what the origin, is to be considered genuine unless validated by a Guru. That said, ingesting hallucinogens, especially in ritual worship settings, is reputed to bring the worshiper closer to the object of his worship. It can also ‘soften’ a hard, disbelieving, overly-logical mind by providing an intensely personal metaphysical experience. Often such experiences change the experiencer by convincing him/her of the existence of metaphysical realities.

Most ancient cultures have had their preferred chemicals to access metaphysical experiences. The ancient Vedic Indians had Soma. Ingesting Soma was widely accepted in society and even glorified; even the gods drank it, especially the Vedic gods like Indra. Shiva, the Destroyer and a primary member of the Trinity, drinks bhang (Cannabis Indica). Worshipers of Shiva, especially Tantric forms of Shiva, are earnest drinkers of bhang.

However, there is a caveat: such experiences are necessarily short-lived, and are of no consequence whatsoever for the attainment of “liberation” in whatever form, as defined by most extant religions. Mainstream Hindu traditions discourage the use of such methods (“vama-marga” - the left-handed path) in the pursuit of spiritual elevation. Mantras of all kinds, when granted by a qualified Guru, eventually lead to experiences similar to yours - but then take you far beyond, bringing you eventually face-to-face with the deity behind the mantra. This requires long-term commitment and discipline, and is therefore the path less traveled. But the results stay with you forever, and do not dissipate away in days/weeks/years as with the use of entheogens.

[Scribble]

There are contemporary religions that use ayahuasca. Mandala, are you claiming that Hindu gurus are somehow “wiser” (however you understand that term) than the leaders or holy people of religions that use consciousness-altering substances? If so, why, and what do you mean?

[mandala]

@Scribble

There are contemporary religions that use ayahuasca. Mandala, are you claiming that Hindu gurus are somehow “wiser” (however you understand that term) than the leaders or holy people of religions that use consciousness-altering substances? If so, why, and what do you mean?

No. I only meant that laypersons are not qualified to judge their own mystical experiences, whether brought on by an entheogen or by deep meditation or a mantra. An adept needs to certify that the experience is indeed genuinely mystical/metaphysical. In the Hindu traditions, this is the domain of Gurus and advanced Yogic practitioners. Every extant religion has its own systems and leaders.

[Royal_Nonesutch]

@mandala

In the Hindu traditions, this is the domain of Gurus and advanced Yogic practitioners.

So what?

In some North American traditions, it is the domain of exhaulted, enlightened beings like Lindsay Lohan, Charlie Sheen or the bass player from Phish.

You have no more basis to judge someone else’s ability to judge their own subjective experiences than you do to judge the “Lithuanian Co-Ed Invitational Nude Hopscotch Championship of 2019”

[QuickSilver]

@mandala

No. I only meant that laypersons are not qualified to judge their own mystical experiences, whether brought on by an entheogen or by deep meditation or a mantra. An adept needs to certify that the experience is indeed genuinely mystical/metaphysical. In the Hindu traditions, this is the domain of Gurus and advanced Yogic practitioners. Every extant religion has its own systems and leaders.

All systems rife with misinformation and abuse.

[Machinaforce]

@mandala

Whether an experience, brought on by any means, is genuinely spiritual or merely hallucinatory, depends on the judgement of an adept - a Guru - who has broad knowledge and experience in such matters. In the Hindu/Buddhist context, no experience, no matter how intense, no matter what the origin, is to be considered genuine unless validated by a Guru. That said, ingesting hallucinogens, especially in ritual worship settings, is reputed to bring the worshiper closer to the object of his worship. It can also ‘soften’ a hard, disbelieving, overly-logical mind by providing an intensely personal metaphysical experience. Often such experiences change the experiencer by convincing him/her of the existence of metaphysical realities.

Most ancient cultures have had their preferred chemicals to access metaphysical experiences. The ancient Vedic Indians had Soma. Ingesting Soma was widely accepted in society and even glorified; even the gods drank it, especially the Vedic gods like Indra. Shiva, the Destroyer and a primary member of the Trinity, drinks bhang (Cannabis Indica). Worshipers of Shiva, especially Tantric forms of Shiva, are earnest drinkers of bhang.

However, there is a caveat: such experiences are necessarily short-lived, and are of no consequence whatsoever for the attainment of “liberation” in whatever form, as defined by most extant religions. Mainstream Hindu traditions discourage the use of such methods (“vama-marga” - the left-handed path) in the pursuit of spiritual elevation. Mantras of all kinds, when granted by a qualified Guru, eventually lead to experiences similar to yours - but then take you far beyond, bringing you eventually face-to-face with the deity behind the mantra. This requires long-term commitment and discipline, and is therefore the path less traveled. But the results stay with you forever, and do not dissipate away in days/weeks/years as with the use of entheogens.

It’s also entirely possible that the lay person can judge this better than the one undergoing the experience. Because those having it are too steeped in the experience or the teachings to see it for what it is.

Which is why I don’t believe in “enlightenment”.