My fiance is black/hispanic/white/Piute Indian. I’m lilly-white. What kind of problems will they face being a mixed race? I imagine they will be darker than I am, and their mixed heritage will be easy to see. Though we will probably live in So CA, so I don’t know if it’ll be a problem down there.
The paper bag test?
Some of you might be interested in this site;
http://www.tolerance.org/index.jsp
Take the “how tolerant are you” test on the lower right.
I tested as “strong unconscious preference for white”. Blew me away! I’m still thinking about it.
Sorry, stuffinb for the sorta hijack.
Peace,
mangeorge (SPLC member)
My maternal grandmother was born in Spain. My paternal grandmother was 1/2 Blackfoot.
My social circles don’t break down by race, except for my family-- and even they are mixed. I’ve got my work friends, my old school friends (I’ve kept the good ones from as far back as junior high), my husband’s old and new friends. My friends and I talk about race all the time. And politics, and T.V., and books. . … These are my friends. I don’t think I’ve ever catagorized them by race and monitored the topic of conversation.
Once I was hanging out with Beerchick and her sister-in-law. They took me to a bar in Queens. Talk about feeling like a drop of chocolate in a tub of milk! There is nothing like that mixture of fear and dread you feel when you walk into a bar and you are the only black person there. Except when it’s the reverse, I guess.
I have no idea what the “Paper Bag Test” is.
I’d like to ask about Affirmative Action.
How do you (stuffinb and Biggirl) feel about it as:
[ul]
[1] Its original concept (theory)
[2] Its implementation (practice)
[3] Its future usefulness (refinement)
[/ul]
Especially since they are being asked faster than I can answer.
Pepperlandgirl, you will have beautiful children who will have a loving, smart, well-grounded, sometimes hot-headed but always open-minded mom (or so one would think after reading your posts here). Race is a big thing out in the world, but it shouldn’t be at home.
Or it shouldn’t be bigger than all the other big things that will come your children’s way. Am I making any sense to you at all?
I think the most important thing we can teach our children is to judge an individual on his or her own merit and demand no less from everyone. You can’t tell a single thing about a person by how they look.
Biggirl:
Am I imagining things when I sense that 2 out of 3 black women I encounter are hostile towards me, a white woman? And if I am not imagining things, why would you think this would be the case? The only theory I have ever heard for it struck me as pretty weak. I heard it from a black man, and he said that many black women are pissed off at white women because they feel like black men, as soon as they make it economically, go looking for white women. So they have a generalized anger towards white women for reducing still further an already reduced pool of available black men.
The black man who said this to me was dating my mother, a white woman…so he either knew what he was talking about, or was just full of himself. It seemed a bit weak to me. But after listening to people like Spike Lee and Louis Farrakan rag on black men for going after white women…maybe it’s true.
In any case, throughout my life I have felt that there has been an uncalled-for level of hostility coming from an unusually high percentage of black women I encounter. If you think I am imagining it…can you come up with a reason why I might be misinterpreting some other behavior and misreading it as hostility?
stoid
Were you offended or amused by the late Cleavon Little’s performance in Blazing Saddles?
Please explain, either way.
Biggirl, the ‘paper bag test’ is where the proprieters of an establishment would compare your skin tone to a brown paper sack, if it was the same or lighter you could get in.
I think color discrimination among blacks is becoming less common, and may be reversing - I’m just old enough to remember black kids in school making fun of others for being darker than them, now I don’t see much of that but I have heard in the last few years a black guy taunting another for being too pale, and heard black women say that they prefer really dark men. Maybe it’s an age thing, though.
Here’s a link to an interesting article in yesterday’s (4/18/01) Baltimore Sun. The columnist, Gregory Kane, is a conservative black man. The column is about education, but he does write about this type of discrimination, Badtz Maru.
http://www.sunspot.net/news/local/bal-md.kane18apr18.column?coll=bal-local-columnists
Did you see “School Days”, the movie by Spike Lee, and if so did you understand the ending, and if so could you explain it?
Well, Stoid, I get hostile reactions from black women who don’t know me well also. It’s because I’m stuck-up, apparently. I speak proper English (not really, I just don’t speak street slang). I listen to “white” music. I’m just no good at “keeping it real”.
This is my own unsubstantiated opinion, but I think there are two main reasons why a black woman would act with hostility towards you. One has to do with self-esteem. Black people as a whole have been made to feel inferior. Black women, inferior and ugly. It’s an ingrained defense mechanism to strike first with disdain.
The second reason is that they don’t like you. Because you are white. There are many, many black people who don’t trust white people. They are suspicious of them. They know, from personal experience, that white people mean nothing but harm to them. These people are bigots. They have reached a conclusion about you based on your appearance.
Of course you may be misinterpreting the different way some black women socialize with hostility. My step-sister’s casual greeting to me is “What’s up, bitch?” and she loves me. Street culture tends to be loud and abrasive. It’s more than a lot of people can take.
Blazing Saddles was hilarious. Was there a certain part that I should have been offended by? I haven’t seen the movie in quite some time.
I have never even heard of the paper bag test, much less been subject to it. After being told for a few hundred years how ugly you are, there is a tendancy to internalize. Straight hair is better than kinky, light skin is better than dark.
The reverse trend is a reaction to the above. Another self-esteem defense mechanism. Black is beautiful, so the blacker the more beautiful.
I’ve got a question that’s ridiculously shallow! Imagine that!
What’s this heresy I hear about black men not liking…to…perform oral sex on a woman.
Is this a vicious rumor started by white men to keep us away from your superior technique, or is that really the deal?
And if it IS true, why not? And if it’s not true…why in the world would people say that?
jarbaby
Sometimes I really hate this test and this one is no different. I took the test once and found out that it was inconclusive. According to them all the likely reasons for it being inconclusive were my fault. So I went ahead and took it a second time and still the test results were inconclusive.
Am I unbiased? Hell no. I don’t care what race or religion you are, if you walk up to me and you’re neatly dressed and speak clearly then I’ll be biased in your favor. If you’re not dressed very neatly and you do not speak in a manner that I can understand then I’ll be biased against you. And by neat I don’t mean trendy or stylish.
Am I unbiased when it comes to race in general? Well, no I don’t think so. I haven’t had a black friend since I was in 7th grade and he moved to Florida, I haven’t had a hispanic friend since we broke up when I was a senior in high school, and I haven’t had an asian friend since I was in elementary school. How come? I think the biggest reason is because in many of my hobbies I haven’t seen many people that weren’t white. I might as well confess to being a geek who plays D&D, war games like Warhammer, and the mandolin. In fact the hobby of mine which enjoys the most integration, among the races as well as genders, Japanese anime.
Oh well, that’s the end of my rant. Carry on.
Marc
Okay I’m going to answer as many of the easier questions first. BTW, thanks for the assist Biggirl you’re more than welcome.
Double click Are you from Canada, I’d noticed the trend there for adopting that accent. I haven’t seen it around people I know.
pantom You can list me as an OG. I like old school R&B. One of the first albums I remember purchasing was that disco rendition of Bethovens 5th, but I have a lot of Motown in my collection. I also listen to 80’s rock, country, etc. I love the Beatles and will eventually buy their Anthology collection.
sleepyhead It would be a little easier to answer yur question if I knew where you lived. Anyhoo, I’ve seen a few white people in hip hop clubs when I used to go, but that’s been nearly a decade. Like biggirl said if they have to search you I’d steer cleer.
{b]Scylla** I have many friends of lots of races. My two best friends are roommates one black the other white. I haven’t had the “frank discussion” since my college and service days, but I’ll ask my buddies if it’s come up amongst themselves.
I have the uncomfortable “You’re Black” thing all the time. I’m in marketing in the Aerospace Industry and commonly talk customers by phone before ever meeting them. Almost without fail most don’t realize I’m black till meeting me. It’s not too big of a problem to prevent business from coming my way. Just a bit of an uncomfortable silence then a quick recovery. This has probably something to do with the fact that I’ve travelled a lot, in the service and a relocation in my youth form the Mid West to California, so I have a non regional dialect. Most people tell me I should do Radio.
Boy this is gettin long. More in a moment.
mangeorge I have heard of the paper bag test but have never seen it practiced so I don’t know if it’s true or not. There is color bias in the black community against each other, with lighter skinned black people threated as superior to darker skinned. This is almost excusively practiced amongst young people (mostly kids) and the under educated. It almost disappears at my age (35).
I’ve taken that test before but I’ll take it again and list my results.
ExTank I’ll handle your question in the next post.
vivalostwages My all time favorite Movie. i watch whenever it’s on and have easily seen it 20 times. If you’d like similar I have a list i’ll email you.
puddleglum I’ve seen it but don’t remember the ending. I remember not particularly caring for the movie as a whole. Want to refresh my memory?
jarbabyj I’ve heard that legend to. I know it’s not true of myself, I know no faster way to prime the pump, so to speak. I suspect it’s a kind of a “don’t ask, don’t tell” kind of thing
MGibson I like Japanese Anime!
When I was in my formative years (mostly elementary and junior high school) I had a few bad experiences with black males (bullies) and no positive experiences interacting with black people in general.
Since I’ve grown up (er… at least I’m physically mature anyway ) I’ve had two friends that were black. However to this day my first reaction to encountering black people is emotional. I can tell that I become more selfconscious and cautious. It’s not that I think to myself:
“This is a black person who will hurt me”
In fact my thoughts are more along the lines of:
“I don’t even know this person and the chances of something bad happening are practically nil. This is a person who is most likely more similar to myself then dissimilar”
But the fact remains that even though I know that my emotional response isn’t rational it’s still there and I feel vaguely guilty about it. As if I were being discriminatory or prejudiced even though no overt action of mine would be characterized as such.
I want to change that aspect of me… but I don’t really know how. Do the black people on this board find this emotional response of mine offensive? What can I do about it?
Grim
The movie is about a freshman at a HBC who is trying to get into a fraternity. The head of the fraternity seems well of and has a pretty girlfriend. There is a student who is not in the fraternity and has a girlfriend who does not get along with the girlfriend of the fraternity head. The fraternity head and the other student clash during the movie and seems headed toward a final showdown when all of a sudden the other student wakes up early in the morning and runs through the campus yelling “Wake Up”. After this the movie ends.
I didn’t see this before. I’ll try my best to answer.
I am torn by Affirmative Action. As long as it is around white people can point to it and say that black people don’t deserve any job or school placement that they receive. There seems to be this feeling amongst white people that they didn’t get a job and a black person did, it’s because of “reverse discrimination” (White people have a hard time accepting the fact that sometimes they just didn’t get the job.)
In a perfect world Affirmative Action would not be needed. People would get jobs according to merit. And most importantly, they would not get turned down for jobs or education opportunities just because of their race. White people like to say things are better now and they are. But not that much better.
The only problem with Executive Order 11246:
The contractor will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin. Such action shall include, but not be limited to the following: employment, upgrading, demotion, or transfer; recruitment or recruitment advertising; layoff or termination; rates of pay or other forms of compensation; and selection for training, including apprenticeship.
is that it’s necessary at all.
I had to do a lot of thinking about this one. I’m still not satisfied with my feelings. However I don’t want to appear to have dodged it so:
this is all second and third hand info
In original concept - I’d say was admirable. Increasing opportunities for all members of society should be a goal of the US.
It’s implementation - Here’s where I get murky, having never been a direct beneficiary. As far as college admissions, if it’s used as a recruitment tool (i.e, they’ve noticed a lack of enrollment, and want to do active recruiting) I’m okay with that. I’m not comfortable if it’s used to choose one student over another as the sole criterion.
In business - if it’s been extablished that Company A is intentionally not hiring Race Member D. I’m comfortable with corrective measures being taken, though I’m sure it would lead to some grumbling.
In the Future - Depending on lots of variables, I’d like it confined to as pure as it’s original concept.
I Hope that was clear.
Grim_Beaker Don’t feel bad about it. Even I feel uncomfortable sometimes approaching strangers black or otherwise. As far as perception goes, I’d recommend reading this report.
puddleglum Now I remember it. Sound like he tried to put one too many messages in his film. I think his meaning was stop fighting amongst yourselves, but that’s a guess.
[list=1]
[li]How old were you when you began to suspect you were black?[/li][li]When did you tell your parents? How did they react?[/li][li]Is it true that you can spot other blacks just by looking at them?[/li][/list=1]