A question of racial stereotypes.

Great Debates
1

My friend and roommate is intelligent, articulate, and generally enlightened. He recently graduated summa cumlaude with an English degree at Clemson University.
He is also African-American.

His job often requires him to speak to large groups of people several times a day. The people he speaks to are widely diverse. (He is a marshal for a Laser Tag arena) He speaks to black people, white people, Asian people, and Middle Eastern people. He speaks to them in the same manner he would speak to anyone else, politely and articulately (sp?).

To date, he has gotten the following insults from the African-American members of his audience.

  1. “Uncle Tom”

  2. “Oreo Cookie”

  3. “Smoked Whitey” (whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean)

And last but not least,

  1. “That nigga be tryin to act white”

So my question is this. These people become angry or amused because my friend does not fit a stereotype of a black male. Is it possible these stereotypes start FROM the culture they are inflicted upon? Do those who wish for cultures to stay separate start them?
Or is it more complicated? Could it be that one particular area of culture attributed sameness? That those outside the culture noticed? I think that it is possible that those who are stereotyped often buy into it themselves out of a need for belonging. Since belonging requires an opposite, people who do not belong, they make fun of my friend. They may do so to reinforce their own “membership”.

In what way is my friend “acting white”? I know many black people who are intelligent and yet never subjected to this treatment. What does it mean to “act white”? What does it mean to “act black”? Why does anyone care??

Discuss. :slight_smile:

2

Racial groups are artificial sociologic constructs. The majority members of this particular sociologic construct in America are urban poor and have a certain degree of anti-intellectualism as part of their cultural identity. Being part of a social grouping isn’t based only on the superficial of skin color, it is also based on the superficial of speech habits and interests. If you do not have those features then other majority members of that minority may feel that you do not fit with them even if you look like them. They may feel that you even look down on them.

It is a real problem in my very mixed community. We have a large Black minority. A minority of that minority are upper middle class very educated Blacks. They tend to live in the same parts of town as the upper middle class whites and go to the same elementary schools where they mostly all get along just fine. Then comes Middle School. In our town Middle School mixes the regions of town up. Now these Black kids, who come from families that highly value educational success, these A students, are put in with a greater number of Black kids who are from the lower middle class section of our town. They are forced to ask who they are. Where do they sit in the lunch room? With the kids they grew up with or with the kids who look like them but some of whom tell them that they are trying to act White if they continue to stay in honors classes and continue to read for fun? Sometimes parents choose to pull them out of the public system at this point to avoid the risk that their child will try to “dumb down” in order to fit in with the former group. They won’t be exposed to that in the Catholic school, they reason.

How did urban poor Black culture become anti-intellectual? Well, it isn’t like it has much of a chance to become much else. Urban schools and challenged households and systematic lack of equal opportunities haven’t exactly given fertile ground for producing scholars of ancient Greek. Slowly, however, our society is holding out more role models of intellectual Blacks who achieve on the basis of brains rather than athelticism or being entertainers. Slowly our society offers up more images of Blacks as the Middle Class and above. As these images become more seen the self-imposed stereotype will slowly fade away and being a scientist, for example, will be seen as just as “Black” as being a basketball star, and just as reasonable of an ambition. Truth be told it is more reasonable, a bright Black kid with ambitions to be a great scientist has more of a crack at it than the typical Black kid hoping to be an NBA star. But we are a way aways yet.

3

Is he taking this flak when he busts some twit for violating the rules? When he is delivering the “Here Are The Rules” lecture before opening the gates? Or simply in the midst of a conversation?

Are the name-callers scattered among the wide variety of church and business groups that may come to burn off their tension and have fun? Or are his abusers pretty typically young “gangsta” wannabes?

Kids are frequently hostile to authority and often spend inordinate amounts of time trying to provoke authority figures. Obviously, easy insults can be found by challenging someone’s “right” to be a member of a group. When I was a kid, anyone below the age of 25 who accepted a position of responsibility was liable to be taunted with accusations of selling out to the man or the establishment.

Now, there is certainly evidence that there are some black kids who share the opinions voiced by the jerks in the OP, but I wonder how much of that is prevalent in the community and how much of what he faces is simply teen-age mouthiness?

4

Yes, the insults are delivered during the “here are the rules” speech. But I wonder, why those insults?? While I love my friend, there are certainly other things about him that could easily be made target for ridicule. :smiley:

If he were white, I don’t think these kids would be as apt to racially motivate their insults. (Yes the majority are kids.)

5

Are you sure, or are you just perpetuating another stereotype?

Not being smarmy… I’d just be surprised if > 50% of the Blacks in the US would be considered “urban poor”.

6

I may or may not have overstated the case.

2002 census data states that 24.1 % of American Blacks live in official poverty (defined varaibly according to family size but annual income of only $14,480 or less for a family of three) and most middle class Blacks live in or around poor areas.

So a quarter meet the official definition of poverty, some indetermined amount is likely very close and would still be considered “poor” by most unofficial standards and many more are still part of the poorer urban communities even though they are not poor themselves.

So no I am not sure that this meets the 50% mark and I’ll state more precisely: a major influence on the cultural identity of this sociological construct is that many of them live in poor urban communities.

7

Here is the actual summation from the Census Bureau:

Source: http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty02/pov02hi.html

8

Superficial to whom? You? I believe that to many people, speech habits and interests matter very much. Whether or not you think it’s right is another question. Personally, I think this attitude is a load of crap–and let’s cut to the chase, we’re talking about hip hop culture, are we not?–it irks me that young black people have to buy into it in order to be “black enough.”

torie, how does your friend dress? how does he sound?

My best friend is black, and she also struggles because she was born on the white side of the tracks. As a result, she dresses “white,” listens to “white” music, and doesn’t talk “black.” Black men won’t date her because she’s too white, and white guys won’t date her because she’s black.

I blame hip hop/pop ‘culture’ for this very inclusive attitude. But then since I’m white, I’m not allowed to say anything right?:rolleyes:

9

Kleine Raupe, the thread is over. tomndebb cut quickly throught the OP’s academic BS to reveal an unremarkable “angry teens insult authority figure in obvious manner” situation. No microcosmic sociological/racial conumdrum here. This scenario just happened to have a superficial, yet ultimately meaningless racial spin to it. I doubt your friend’s situation is that drastic either. I’ve never known any black people who had to struggle because they didn’t embrace the hip-hop culture, any more than any non-black who eschews popular culture does. I certainly haven’t, and we’re in the same city so it can’t be a regional thing. And no, you can’t say anything because you’re white. There’s your oppression for today, are you happy?

10

not really, brat.

11

But yes, I see what you’re saying about the angry kids… although the name calling sticks out to me. If the little darlings are using words like that, he’s being made fun of because he’s too white. And that’s not right.

I don’t think it’s fair that I’m not ‘allowed’ an opinion.:frowning:

12

I would say the way he talks most seem like a boss or leader… roles traditionally given to whites ?

Orea Cookie and Smokey white are actually quite creative nicknames… mean… but funny.

Some people in the board still think there is no racism in America ?
13

Superficial doesn’t mean not important. It only means what is on the easily observed outside surface. Such may be very important to some. Such may in fact correlate with other features less apparent … or not.

No, not “hip hop”. What we are talking about preceded that trend and will outlive it as well I suspect.

I don’t know whether or not this man’s harrassment was merely rude teens using what they felt was a handy jibe or related to a something else, but the issues are very real. No BS; issues that effect families I know.

What does it mean to be “Black” in America? Who defines what is and isn’t “Black” and why? How much of “Black” or any other group identity for that matter is bloodline vs appearence vs cultural attributes and what happens when they conflict?

14

As often happens, tomndebb has cut to the heart of it. More likely than not, the reaction is to the manner in which the message is delivered – not to the fact that he is a well-educated Black. I’m surprised he doesn’t know better.

My students showed respect for speakers both Black and white if the speakers knew how to relax and be themselves. But they could spot arrogance with their eyes closed.

One of our granduates became a member of the Vanderbilt Board of Trust while still in his late twenties or early thirties. He was the neighbor hero. And the Fisk Jubilee Singers were treated like royalty.

The last speaker we had before I retired was Arthur Ashe. Nobody was putting him down for 'selling out."

If the speaker is having problems coming across to the kids, it is because he still has much to learn. Maybe he should try smaller groups until he learns what works and what doesn’t.

15

Great thought for a thread of its own. I would add something to ask when did the term “African-American” begin and eventually manifest itself? I was overseas at the time and missed it.

16

You really think that? Yes, there is an element of truth in tomndebbs post. To limit it to that is simplifying things just a little.
But maybe that is more of my “academic BS” Was that really necessary?

17

Anyone who knows my friend also knows that he is the least
“arrogant” person. He is one of the most humble people I know.

18

I’m not at all sure that I have answered the OP or defined the “reality” of the situation. My questions were, indeed, questions.

The reason I asked was to ascertain whether this was a general response from the black community or whether it was an attitude displayed by some (as yet unquantified) number of black kids.

On the one hand, I suspect that such attitudes do tend to be localized to the “youth” population. On the other hand, that does not make it a non-issue.

As the topic was raised in the BBQ Pit’s High School Caucasian Club deemed ‘culturally insensitive’ by NAACP-double standard? thread (amid the usual hostility and misunderstandings), there is anecdotal evidence for some portion of black kids expressing anti-intellectuialism in the context of mocking studious kids for “acting white.” I do not know how widespread it is. (On that thread, Zoe provided anecdotal evidence that it is not the norm. On the other hand, in this post and the one immediately following it, I provided links to an issue in Shaker Heights, OH and the study that resulted from the concerns of black parents.) My point in asking, in this thread, who was making the antagonistic remarks was to see whether it was perceived to be a “black” problem or a “black teen” problem. While the latter is troubling (and may contribute to future problems for that group), it far less scary than seeing the same attitide pervade the entire black community.

In the very late 80s or early 90s, following a meeting of Civil Rights leaders in or near Chicago, Jesse Jackson proclaimed that the group had agreed that they preferred to be identified in that way. Most of the participants were drawn from the large rust-belt cities where there continue to be a significant number of descendants of European immigrants who identify themselves as hyphenated Americans (to use Woodrow Wilson’s scornful epithet). Thus, in Chicago (Jackson’s home), Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, etc. you can still find many people who identify themselves as Polish-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, (more recently, Mexican-American), etc. The group who had met felt that blacks were prevented from being seen as “typical” Americans by their identification by color instead of ethnic association. They asked, therefore, that they be idenitified in a manner similar to their neighbors.

There were, of course, a few problems with the idea. Outside the rust-belt, “hyphenated-Americans” are the exception, not the rule, so many people perceive it as an attempt to separate blacks from American society–the exact opposite of its intent. The term lends itself to mockery (as when a white South African immigrant is called an “African-American”). When used as a substitute for “black,” it leads to absurdities such as the widely quoted reference to Nelson Mandela as the “first African-American president of South Africa.” Unlike the term black, which was chosen by the black community, at large, after several years of public debate, “African-American” was handed down by a single small group and given currency simply because so much of the U.S. media looks upon Dr. Jackson as a de facto spokesperson for the black community.

It was a good intention that went awry and it is unfortunate that it is now used by many people as a point of contention and division.

19

Ok, maybe because I am white I do not and could not understand BUUUUUUUUTTTTT… I have a couple of questions/clarifications:

  1. Are the “african americans who act ‘white’” being abused at all… other then verbally?
  2. Does it really matter that they are being called names? If I was a white kid and studious amongst other whites who were non-studious, I would be called a nerd. In fact, in highschool now, just because I take some college-level classes… what do you think people who dont (or do…) say? Unless it is flamed by race, all races experience classification within social groups, that is just how it is. Going back to the many adages of youth: Those who make you feel less about yourself are in fact the lesser of a person then you.

BESIDES… they are kids… and the guy is an adult… if he was to speak in front of a group of apathetic teenagers and was white… I am almost certain that he would get blasted with all sorts of comments.

Race or no race… kids at one point or another are meglomaniacs.