Ask the Credit Counseling Account Maintenance Specialist

I’ve been meaning to do this for a while now, and I called in sick today so I figured now is as good a time as any.

I work for a national non-profit consumer credit counseling agency. We’ve served about 3,000,000 in 48 states. (With field offices in Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Arizona, Wisconsin and New York.) We’ve been in business since 1961 and in good standing with the Better Business Bureau since 1968. We’re also fully certified by the NFCC and the Counsel on Accreditation. When these major watchdog groups do their audits, they generally report that we are the best they’ve seen. In fact, we were recently assigned a big group of new clients by the Federal Trade Commission when another organization lost it license.

I work in the financial district of Manhattan in one of those very large buildings downtown. If you’re picturing some kind of massive operation, an office filled with hundreds, you’d be wrong (as was I when considering the transfer.) Our office is teeny tiny and staffed with just four people, two counselors who run appointments and two of me, who handle account maintenance. Between the two of us we handle about 900 current clients as well as anyone who walks through the front door. It’s rather insane.

I used to work for the same company at their national headquarters in Michigan, but I took a promotion out here and have been working in a field office for about three months. My job description is ridiculously long, but it is some combination of customer service, reception, administration and account maintenance. I do everything from field client concerns to the hard-core policy stuff like proposal verification and payment negotiation.

One of the most important things I’ve learned so far is that a lot of people really don’t understand the way debt management programs work. There are a ton of misconceptions, many of them negative due to 1) innacurate information or 2) scheming bastards out there trying to take advantage of people. Hence in the spirit of fighting ignorance I come before you today.

Obligatory Caveat: I am not a credit counselor. I am not able to tell you, based on your situation, if credit counseling is the right option for you (though I can certainly point you in the direction of someone who can.) What I can tell you is how the programs work, what to expect in terms of policy and interest rate concessions, what typically happens in various cases, most common customer concerns, etc.

So what is “accounts maintenance”? I realize it’s probably a general business concept, but I’d never heard it before.

My primary job is to service the clients who are enrolled on a DMP (Debt Management Program.) In other words, I maintain their account. Sometimes I do that by answering their questions or concerns (customer service issues.) Sometimes I do that by fixing creditor issues, such as a rejected proposal. If we get a credit card billing statement, for example, that indicates an interest rate is higher than standard concession rate, I would follow up on that. Additionally, whenever something is not going as it should with an account, a task pops up in our system. It’s my job to do whatever the task entails, whether it’s verifying creditor information, contacting an attorney, faxing a document, calling a client about a missed payment, etc.

Are most of your clients just ignorant of the way credit works, or are they greedy people that bit off more than they can chew?

We see all kinds. A lot of them are ignorant (some willfully, persistently so) about the way credit works. It’s not uncommon for some clients to consistently miss deposits to us and then become angry when we can’t send payments to their creditors. Most creditors have a policy that if you miss one or more of your payments while on a debt management program, they will drop you and you will lose concessions. I had a guy yelling at me the other day because he could not make payments to us at all for two straight months, and when I told him this might result in him being dropped from the program, he couldn’t grasp that we couldn’t prevent that. Some people come to us with very unrealistic expectations. It is our policy to be completely up front, both during the counseling session and in the contract, about what we can and cannot do, what to expect, how we work. People don’t hear any of it. They hear what they want to, and sometimes that means they hear, ‘‘You no longer are responsible for paying your debts.’’

Particularly in recent times this irresponsibility seems to have been drowned out by a lot of otherwise responsible folks who have been stricken by a job loss, death, divorce… I’ve heard some absolutely heartbreaking stories of personal hardship. On the other hand, some people just don’t want to pay 30% interest on their credit cards. A lot of them get hit by the universal default clause, which means if you miss a payment on one debt, your interest rates* on all of your debts* can suddenly increase. Also credit card companies have started arbitrarily raising interest rates regardless of whether or not the person has a good credit history.

Just to seed the conversation some.

What are some common misconceptions about what you can and will do? And what are the facts?

Hey olivesmarch4th, thanks for what you do.

Your Ontarian equivalents helped pull me back from a total trainwreck that might otherwise have ended in suicide. I got in over my head about ten years ago, with interest building on interest; it was the trip to Europe that put me over the edge. I did the debt counseling thing, then had to go to trustee and make a ‘consumer proposal’, which involved an orderly repayment of part of my debts in return for forgiveness of the rest. I spent four threadbare years paying off the debt, then a couple of years stabilizing myself and starting to save money. Now I’m back to normal–the consumer proposal has dropped off my credit record, and just this week I got a new credit card, complete with funky embedded chip! Now I can rent a car and drive for the first time since 2000.

But the most important change has been psychological. Not just the ‘been burned, don’t want to go there again’ part of it; during this time I put in a lot of work healing myself and becoming stronger, both in body and mind. In some sense, the need to buy things to fill an aching mental void has gone. I still have struggles, but there is not that same need to buy to paper over the gaps.

Kalhoun, I don’t think that ignorance or deliberate malice are the only two options. As olives mentions, sometimes people take a hit that puts them over the edge. Yet the system also seems balanced to come down too heavily on those that do go over the edge.

So, thank you.

Thank you so much for this thread. My clients (I am a psychologist) ask me about debt managment and bankruptcy, etc, all the time. Can you tell what your company actually does? How does credit counseling work? (Also, I am in TN. If your company has a branch here, could you PM me the name?)

Sunspace, I’m really glad you got the assistance you needed. I actually was a client of my organization before I worked there! I was so impressed by how significantly they helped me that I wanted to put in my time giving back. Every time someone calls in and my patience is wearing thin, I take myself back in time to the day I tried to open a checking account and was unable to because I had been reported to checking systems for an unpaid overdrawn account. I will never forget how hard I cried when I climbed back into the car, how completely hopeless and lost I felt and how difficult it was to walk through the door of a credit counseling agency.

To start with Brynda, what we can do depends on exactly what the situation is, right down to the precise balance information, loan terms, and creditor policy of the debt in question. Generally we are able to negotiate with credit card companies (via written proposals) requesting reduced monthly payments for the client due to personal hardship. This often includes re-aging the account, reducing interest rates, and waiving late fees and overlimit charges. We are full-service so we work with more than just credit card debts… student loans, car payments, you name it (three exceptions: alimony, child support, insurance.)

A client who is enrolled on a Debt Management Program with us will expect to make some sort of monthly deposit directly to our company. We then distribute these payments to the credit card companies on the client’s behalf. It is essentially as if we keep a checking account for them, with a register and everything, and keep track of where their dollars are going and when. There is usually a monthly fee involved that is $50 or less – may sound like a lot, but when you factor in the drastic reduction of monthly payments, it’s really nothing. My monthly payments were cut in half, so the $50 was not a big deal… I was still paying out less money than before. We do waive the fee in cases of extreme financial hardship. Also, all counseling is free. If someone just wants help putting together a budget or wants advice on purchasing a home, they can see us free of charge. We do free workshops on the weekend in addition to being available, via appointment, to dispense general information about financial literacy. We provide referrals from government aid, legal aid, aid from other nonprofits. We do stuff through HUD. We also offer Bankruptcy counseling and the certifications required to go through the process.

Now, to thank Projammer for the seed–to address the misconceptions. One of the major misconceptions is that once you decide to sign on the bottom line, the calls will immediately stop and you will never have to deal with a credit card company ever again. People generally expect that magical fairies will come out and make everything all better in the blink of an eye. It doesn’t work that way. In fact, it’s probably going to take about 1-3 months before the collection calls stop–we are very up front about that but it’s usually ignored until the calls roll in.

The reason for the lack of instant gratification in this process is because things can get pretty complicated during the proposal acceptance stage. I want to make it clear that we consider ourselves mediators between creditor and clients… creditors are not The Enemy, but actually we have a pretty amicable and predictable relationship with prescribed protocol that is different for each creditor. Almost all of the creditors prefer that our point of first contact with them is with a written proposal sent directly to their Credit Counseling Group. This is usually a completely separate department from the credit card collections staff. We can’t just ring collections up on the phone and say, ‘‘Oh hey, this is AAA Debt Counseling. We’re totally sending over a proposal so you should stop calling Jane Doe.’’ That would be meaningless to them. Collections don’t usually care whether a proposal is on its way or not–a past due account is a past due account, and their commission is their commission. Certain agents will say just about anything to get a payment out of someone, up to and including, ‘‘We don’t accept proposals from Debt Management Companies’’ even if it is a blatant lie.

It usually takes between 30-90 days for a proposal to get accepted, at which point the debt is removed from collections and calls usually stop right away, as long as you make your DMP payments. Proposals are pretty routinely rejected for superfluous reasons like requesting a dollar more for payment, or a name not matching a statement perfectly. We fix the problem and resend, but this is time-consuming. One creditor in particular takes 60 days on their end to verify and approve debt management proposals. Another requires a recent credit report and a written explanation of the client’s financial hardship. Every single creditor is different, and we have to play by their rules.

And sometimes the client does have to interact with the creditor. There are times, even when we have accepted proposals on file, that we can’t get basic information like a payoff balance because someone in the CCG department of Credit Company X keeps misplacing the faxed authorization we’ve sent about 8,999 times, or we don’t have the exact address where the client lived 20 years ago. It happens. If you decide you want to try to negotiate a settlement, you’re going to have to make that call. We have a very specific role and while we’re more than happy to offer advice and support, we can’t take your place completely.

Finally, I think a lot of credit counseling agencies get a bad reputation because there are some out there who really do not care whether you can afford a DMP or not. They will sign up anyone and everyone who walks in their door. Where I work things are very detailed, customized, and direct. We’re not in the business of false hope. You are going to expect to sit down for an hour with proof of income, create an itemized, detailed list of all the monthly expenses you have, go over a recent credit report indicating your debts and the status thereof, and then the counselor will discuss the various options at your disposal, which may or may not include a DMP, depending on whether it looks like it would be a benefit to you. If you have a $1000 monthly deficit, you will not benefit from a DMP. We cannot create money out of thin air.

I do not envy our counselors, because they often have the hardest job in the world–telling people what they do not want to hear. Telling people they are too far behind on their mortgage to save the house, telling people they need to find a second job or consider renting out a room, essentially telling people the truth about where they are. We do this in the most compassionate and hopeful way possible, but we still have to do it.

To name just one example, one of the most unpredictable and difficult arrangements to make on a DMP are contracts with a 3rd party debt collector. If an account is so far past due that it has been sold to an outside source, and that source is demanding payment in full, there is maybe a 20% chance we will get an accepted proposal. In cases like that, we tell clients that we can continue sending payments to the creditor but the creditor will be able to legally pursue the debt at any point if they wish. Sometimes the client opts to settle (pros and cons of this are discussed), sometimes we pay on a debt for years without an accepted proposal and it is eventually paid in full, and other times the creditor will go after the client and they will show up in our office in tears with a court summons.

And this is where I think we really can shine – there’s nothing we can do to go back in time. We can’t take the court summons away, which is what some people are really hoping for. But what we can do is provide education that enables the client to understand that even at this point, they are not powerless. Before I started working for GreenPath I could think of nothing more dreadful than receiving a court summons, and probably a lot of people feel the same way. They have visions of wage garnishment, bank account seizure and all other kinds of horrors. What they don’t realize is that there is a legal process that must occur to get from point A (lawyer threatening to sue) to point B (wage garnishment.) In between a client generally has the option to file an answer to the summons and to appear in court before a judge and to draft documentation showing a history of payments and requesting they pay off the debt in like monthly installments. Since we don’t dispense legal advice, we never promise anything or tell the client what they should and should not do. But most people aren’t even aware this process exists. The advantage to paying on one of these debts through our company is that we keep meticulous records, so if worse comes to worst and that summons does have your name on it, we’ve got your back. I’ve seen more than a few judgments come out of litigation that honor the client’s stated request to continue making monthly payments through us.

My gosh that was long. Sorry. I think this is kind of therapeutic for me. We’ve been really busy lately!

olivesmarch4th, is the organization you work for a private for-profit company? Because the debt counselors I went to were a charitable agency, and were actually funded by the regional government. The trustee, on the other hand, was a for-profit private company that reminded me of a lawyer’s office.

Oh, and so nobody thinks I’m skirting the issue–I want to quickly address the impact of a DMP on the credit score. It is by no means the equivalent of bankruptcy, but if you have a credit score of 800 and you are perfectly on time with everything when you walk in the door, your credit is going to take a hit. This is mostly for three reasons:

  1. Most creditors require that an account be closed in order to be on a DMP. Since your credit score is partially based on your available credit, your score will lower because your available credit just diminished. Some will say on the report, ‘‘Account closed at grantor’s request.’’ It’s better if you can call the creditor preemptively and close the account yourself.

  2. If you aren’t making the minimum payment in that 1-3 month window of time while your proposal details are being ironed out, you are going to be reported as past due and you are going to get hit with late fees unless until the proposal is accepted. We always recommend that clients take their minimum payment, subtract what we’re sending, and send the rest until their proposal is accepted. Alternatively they can temporarily send us extra money to make their minimum payments on their behalf. They can’t always do that, but then, if they couldn’t afford the full payment it’s not really us damaging their credit score so much as their inability to pay in general.

  3. Creditors will sometimes report that the account was paid through a DMP, which can be seen as good or bad depending on your perspective I guess. I’m not sure how often this happens. When I was on a DMP none of my creditors reported me this way.

The bulk of the damage happens, then, at the beginning. By the time you’ve repaid your debt 3-5 years later (which is incidentally the time you’re able to take out new credit), this isn’t going to have much overall impact on the score. If you are already seriously past due when you walk through our doors, your score will probably only get better. When I signed up on a DMP in 2004 my credit score was 530. It’s now around 700, which is pretty good, especially when you consider that there are no less than 19 derrogatories still listed on my credit report (all of which were there when I started.)

Sunspace, I work for a certified non-profit. We have various funding sources, including grants, investments, Fair Share (creditors paying a percentage back to us), and yes, fees. The amount of the fees are dictated by state law, but we never exceed $50. They are usually based on income. Mine was $24/month.

I don’t generally recommend for-profit agencies, and also we’ve seen a lot of clients burned by debt settlement companies. I should have stated this sooner, but any organization you work through should be a non-profit, certified by the National Foundation for Credit Counseling (the agency that regulates the good ones.) They should also be in good standing with the Better Business Bureau.

Here’s some info about the NFCC and what it means to be certified: http://www.nfcc.org/AboutUs/aboutus_01.html

If you call their 800 number they will automatically refer you to a certified consumer credit counselor licensed in your state. Just make sure when you talk to the actual agency you grab their phone number – if you call back the NFCC the odds are good you will be routed to a different agency (it’s randomized.)

Brynda we do not have any branch offices in Tennessee but we are licensed there. That means your clients could do everything over the telephone if they wanted to. To be honest, though, I think the face to face experience is more rich and comforting.

When I signed up for the consumer proposal, I was told that my credit rating was already almost as bad as it could be, and the additional hit wouldn’t make that much of a difference. I don’t know what my credit score actually was at that point.

Last summer, I got a copy of one of my credit scores and report and much to my surprise found that it was 760. I also noticed that the consumer proposal had already disappeared from the report. (It was set to disappear three years after being paid off.) I think that went a long way towards clearing the way for a successful credit-card application. I had assumed that I was simply too radioactive to touch, creditwise.

But I’m glad I did the consumer proposal instead of bankruptcy; one of the first three questions on the credit-card application was, “Have you ever declared bankruptcy?”

Interestingly, there were two long-forgotten accounts on the report, both paid off, but not closed. One was for a computer I bought on one of those “Do not pay until a year from now!” deals. I paid it off the day before the deal was due, and had forgotten that I ever had the credit from that store. (For reference, I bought the computer with the extra-big 700-megabyte hard drive…)