Is apple cider wine? Cider (apple and peach) seems to have a great deal of complexity.
Wine is made from grapes. If it ain’t made from grapes, it ain’t wine. Apple cider is, well, cider.
Just wanted to say how righeously perceptive you are. “The best way to learn is to teach.” — Socrates
Cool thread.
I recently tried some Madeira, which I’d read was extremely popular in the 18th century (it was George Washington’s favorite wine, for instance). I thought it tasted a lot like sherry, which I don’t particularly care for. Does it actually have anything in common with sherry? And why do you think it lost popularity over the years?
Thanks guys! This is very fun, I’m glad you like it.
I’m going to answer this one because it’s easy, then I’ll get to the others before it I’ve missed ASAP.
There is a new website that UC Davis has put up that does a pretty damn well near perfect job of doing this.
It’s an absolutely excellent tool for cross referencing varietals. And the list of varietals is exhaustive. I could spend hours getting lost on it, really.
You can do a search for say zinfandel, and it will show you what varietals apply. Choose one and it gives you even more info:
It doesn’t list the country where every synonym is used or is from, but that should be easy enough to find.
Excellent website, IMHO.
Of course this is one of the tougher questions for me. 
I don’t pay much attention to reviewer names, but I know there are a few out there that when I see them and a good review, I’ll perk up a bit and will probably seek out and buy a wine. Off the top of my head:
Doug Frost
Dan Berger
Andy Perdue
Wilford Wong (BevMo)
And I’m sure I’m missing a few.
I pay much more attention to competition results than I do to 100 point system ratings. I don’t think the 100 point system is bad, anything that gets people interested in wine or buying more wine or talking about wine is good to me. It’s a passion for me, and just like people who are passionate about football like having other fans to talk to about this or that with, I enjoy having more people to chat about wine with.
The 100 point system can be helpful when faced with a wall of wines, no doubt. But I have to always keep in mind that, with Parker’s scores specifically, it is just one man’s opinion. And to call it a 100 point system is kind of a joke to me, as a score lower than 70 doesn’t really exist. Making it a 30 point system.
I like that with competitions, you’ve got a room full of professionals tasting blindly. To me, when you get 20 experts agreeing that this wine or that one was such a stand out against all the others, well, that’s a wine I’m interested in trying.
So I look for those Gold medal notes on the shelf. But I also use several competition web sites results pages as quick and dirty shopping lists.
Some good wines:
I’m thinking of starting a little backyard vineyard. Can you recommend a good book on how best to grow grapes? I think I have the wine making part covered, but I want to make sure I do the best job possible getting the vines going.
No, I’ve never heard of Irish Moss being used for winemaking. Wine’s not brewed like beer. Could be something to do with the the way the Irish Moss reacts when heated, not sure though.
I was talking to someone about a book specifically for backyard vineyards today in class (as we planted a vineyard!)
They suggested From Vines to Wines by Jeff Cox (Who is actually our local restaurant critic, oddly enough.)
I would also suggest what is considered sort of the ‘Viticulture Bible’ as a general reference - General Viticulture by A.J. Winkler. It’s dated, but still has lots of good general info.
In addition to what the lovely psycat said, there is alsot the matter of yeasts…
Cider, beer, wine and champagne all use different strains of yeast (though a lot of home brewers I have spoken with use a champagne yeast for their cider).
Yea. My cider knowledge is quite lacking. I know I love drinking it, that’s about it.
I had to search for an answer for the difference between cider and wine and came up with this -
Very interesting.
I think ‘fruity’ is probably the best way to describe those types of wines.
As for a general class. Hard to say. I find fruit characteristics in almost all of the wines I drink. If I had to pick one red that is ‘fruity’ to me, I’d go with Zinfandel. I get a lot of blackberry, blueberry, jammy type aromas and tastes.
And for whites, some Sauv Blancs are pretty fruity. I guess it just depends on your mood.
Sure, people love Burgundy. It’s just hard to find value wines that are worth the price many times. I do OK by heading down to Kermit Lynch in Berkeley for my French wines, because he kind of takes the guess work out of finding a good wine, at least to me. Otherwise, it’s such a crap shoot for the average consumer, unless you can afford the renowned wines or has a friend that can who likes to share.
Oh great, there goes another big pile of cash for me. Thanks a lot, psycat!
As far as the 100 point system… yes you’re right, it really is more of a 30 point system. Officially, a 50 point system. Bob throws in 50 points to start with so it looks more like a percentage. He thought that would be easier for people to understand.
Anyway, I’m with you on the reviewers. Interesting as data points but hardly the bible some people like to say they are.
If this is true, then what is the nature of my favorite southern Oregon wine the Girardet Baco Noir? When I asked them at the booth they said it came from the Baco Noir grape in France. I’m guessing they are related to Pinot Noir, but perhaps they are actually the same grape.
ETA: Nevermind
Madeira is a really interesting wine.
To answer your questions, it does have a few things in common with Sherry, mainly fortification and oxidation. But they each get there differently, depending on the style. There are both sweet and dry styles of Madeira and Port.
Sweet styles of Madeira are like Port in that the fermentation is halted with the addition of alcohol (usually brandy or a neutral grape spirit), leaving some residual sugar.
Dry styles are like Sherry, with the fortification taking place after the wine has fermented dry.
Different grape varietals are used with Tinta Negra Mole being the most impoprtant for Madeira and Pedro Ximinez the most important for Sherry. And just like Champagne and Port, true Sherry comes from the Jerez region of Spain, and true Madeira comes from the island of Madeira Island (Portugal.)
But what really makes Madeira unique is the heating process used to create it’s oxidized, caramelized flavors. On its own in the early 17th century or so, it was a highly acidic wine (then made by different grape varietals), used mainly as ballast for sailing ships and as a cheap yet drinkable wine for the crew which also helped prevent scurvy. It was found then that adding a jug of brandy to the cask helped prolong the life of the wine.
It was also discovered that the wine seemed to improve once it had been on a ship for a long time, baking in the tropical heats while at sea. It then became standard to not consider the wine complete until it had made one or two voyages. The location of the island made it a natural stop for ships heading to America, and the wine became a hit. It was used to toast the Declaration of Independence. British soldiers returning home brought the love of the wine back with them, and it was enjoying much success.
And then the vines on the island suffered disaster in the forms of powdery mildew and phylloxera. Then Prohibiton all but destroyed the American market.
The heating process is done today by equipment or heated rooms known as estufas, where the wine is allowed to slowly bake for a minimum of 90 days.
Sherry’s oxidation process is done in a *solera *system - where wine is moved from newer to older barrels. Some Sherry also benefits from a yeast that grows on the surface known as flor.
Madeira is just about indestructible as a wine, and an open bottle can last a very, very long time.
It’s definitely a great dessert wine. Perhaps it will gain popularity again.
Pinot Noir is the most popular ‘noir’ grape, but definitely not the only. Using the NGR website I linked to earlier, I find at least 6 others not including Baco and Pinot:
3 are vinifera and 3 are hybrids - villard noir, landot noir, grenache noir, grand noir, gamay noir, and corot noir.
Good catch. Still, the answer to the original question is that there isn’t a “noir wine” except for wines made with grapes that have “noir” as part of their names. I believe that is the case also for “blanc wines”, no? They are not simply white wines made from grapes that are normally used for red wine, but from different grapes that have “blanc” as part of their names. Pinot Blanc wine is a white wine made from Pinot Blanc grapes, not a white wine made from Pinot Noir grapes.
As to the cider vs. wine issue, I recently tried a bottle of Naked Grape Shiraz. I would describe it as “grape cider”. To me, it just tasted more like vodka and (dry) grape juice than wine. Are there any “unoaked” wines you enjoy?
Oops -
Missed this. Please replace ‘Port’ in this sentence with 'Sherry. ’
Thank you! 
Well, mostly correct. Pinot Blanc is a white wine made from Pinot Blanc grapes.
And in most cases ‘blanc’ in the grape varietal name will mean a white grape. But not always, there are some misleading synonyms out there such as Bouton Blanc for Carmenère and Bonton Blanc for Petit Verdot (both red grapes/wines.)
And there are Champagnes labeled ‘Blanc de Noirs’ or “white from blacks”, which are in fact white wines made from black grapes (either Pinot Noir or Pinot Meunier or both.)
Blanc de Blanc Champagnes are made solely from Chardonnay grapes.
Then there are winery names such as Chateau Cheval Blanc, where the wine is simply known by the chateau name, which can be very confusing for many consumers.
Chateau Cheval Blanc is one of the most esteemed wines in Bordeaux and was featured in the movie Sideways, where the Merlot bashing character revered it as his most prized wine. I think a lot of people missed the irony or pun of his little outburst, as Chateau Cheval Blanc is a Merlot based blend.
Anyway, I know what you are getting at and you are mostly correct, but the answer isn’t entirely, ummm…black and white. Hope I didn’t just muddle things up there.
I would assume that “Blanc” in that case refers to the *cheval *(horse), not the grape. Non? But yeah, there is probably always going to be some exception to the rule.