Thanks, Bartman. I’ve actually found quite a few former Mormons out on the web. Most are pretty cool and smart, if I do say so myself. Where did you serve your mission? It sounds like a wild place!
Well, they really aren’t looking for the youth market. I think it’s more about trying to present a professional image, even though short-sleeved white shirts and ties are more Sipowicz than Wall Street. Plus, normal members don’t have to go out and do missionary work so they don’t have anything to fear on that front. Perhaps it’s an underhanded attempt to get people to feel sorry for the missionaries and invite them in for a glass of water. I have to say, I am eternally grateful to people who gave me a glass of water on a hot day even if they weren’t interested.
Reloy3 – Oh, I don’t doubt that the way it was done was not by church rules/policy, but it is how it was done to me. The only thing I figure is that they really believed I was some kind of demon-possessed witch capable of causing them harm by mere proximity – it’s just not what you do to someone who doesn’t even bother to go to your church, let alone a 12 year old.
As for who gave me permission to skip church, yes, that was my parents. They both figured it made more sense to allow me to stay home where I didn’t have to pretend to be nice to people I was beginning to think were idiots. Maybe it was rude for me to speak my mind, but I never offered my opinions until they were forced out of me – by that I mean “what’s wrong with you? Why don’t you testify? Why don’t you want to go to this church gathering or that one?”
Looking back, I realise that at least a few of the elders/bishops we had in that ward were (at the very least) mentally unstable, at the time I just wanted to not have to deal with them.
I can’t see where you are located, so I don’t know if it is a heavily Mormon area or not, but I reiterate that this was rural TN in the late 70’s, early 80’s. The LDS church was definitely fringe/cult status around here in that time.
North East Brazil. When I got in the mission there were only about 50 missionaries and 1000 members (10 branches) in an area of around 200,000 square miles and 20+ million people. By the time I left 20 months later we had 2 stakes, 16 Wards ~20 Branches and over 8000 active members in the mission. Needless to say with that kind of growth, in a church without a professional clergy, means hardly anybody actually has more that the barest understanding of their religion. The bishop in my last ward was 27 and a convert of about only 5 years. But he had been on a mission and was by far the most “experienced” member, so into the bishopric he went.
I tell while I do kind of regret spending so much time and money on a religion I no longer believe in, I wouldn’t give up those years for anything. I met some of the kindest most wonderful people in my life during that time. And had some of the wildest experiences of my life.
As a note though, the Male Relief Society President? That was in Nebraska.
There are at least two threads on the subject. Anyway, yup, I taught English in an elementary school in a town of 3,000 people in the middle of fucking nowhere, Bulgaria. (We had running water - most of the time - so wells weren’t really an issue.) It WAS great, in the sense that I learned a lot and became a stronger person, but it was also really, really, really tough and I can’t say I miss it a whole hell of a lot. I’ve heard my classmates whine about how boring Ann Arbor is, but in my mind it’s a paradise of bookstores, ethnic restaurants, and ENGLISH in comparison to my last couple years.
Here’s a question for you. Is it REALLY a rule that people being baptized have to be wearing only a thin white robe and no undies? Cause I couldn’t help but thinking that was extremely unnecessary when my female friend converted at 16. Seemed like an excuse for a bunch of horny old men to look at a young teenage girl in a clingy, wet, see through gown.
That would be well outside my experience. White is worn to symbolize purity, and I don’t recall any requirements about underclothes. Almost all local congregations have a large stock of thick and modest jumpsuits availible for use (for free) to avoid precisely that. Mormons as a rule a very big on modesty. This is what every baptism I ever went to looked like. You can see through this guy’s sleeve, but the body is quite opaque even soaking wet.
Well then either they missed out on that memo or my memory’s been embellished a little over the years. Probably more of the latter I would think but I definitely remember thinking how inappropriate it was so maybe they didn’t use as thick as material as necessary…
As an atheist that grew up in Utah, I can answer this one; it sucks. My experience was quite different than pepperlandgirl’s though. I was asked about my religion all the time. Oh, not every day or anything like that, but definitely enough that I noticed it was a common question. I moved from there 9 years ago, and haven’t been asked about my religion once since.
I always thought it was just me, but after Mormons would ask what ward I’m in and I gave them the ‘sorry I’m not Mormon’ reply there was always a subtle change in their behavior. I don’t quite know how to describe it, but it was almost like how you’d react to someone if you asked at a wedding “Are you with the bride or groom?” and they said “Oh I just wandered in off the street, nice buffet you have here.”
The culture is dry and boring, and it’s politics are run lockstep by the Mormon church. As for polygamy, I went to high-school with two openly polygamist families. It’s rather obvious when 6 kids all look the same, all have the same last name and are within 3 years of age to each other. They didn’t bother hiding their polygamist status at all.
And what’s with the flood of missionaries to Utah? They have the second highest concentration of Mormons per capita in the world yet while I lived there I couldn’t swing a dead cat around without hitting an Elder Barry off his bike, leather bag flying merrily away.
But I’m not bitter, or anything. I’d also like to be on the ‘do no posthumously baptize, lest I fling asteroids at my planet’ list.
I have a question for the OP: is “a man can become a God” an actual teaching? And does it essentially mean that a man-turned-God will have his own planet?
I ask because even though I count several Mormons as friends, that tenet always sounded like a strawman, and I was embarrassed to ask it of a Mormon who still believed.
I’ve gone through a curious change regarding Mormons. I’m a confirmed atheist who drinks a lot and am very libertine sexually, so I used to assume that Mormons were my avowed enemies. But over the years I’ve found Mormons to be on average more pleasant to work with and have as neighbors than most people (as long as I avoid any discussions related to stuff we disagree on).
AngelSoft, I have no doubt that you’re probably remembering correctly. It was almost certainly inadvertant, though. The rule is that you have to wear all white at your baptism. The exact gown or whatever varies depending on the congregation. Generally, you wear your own underwear beneath that white gown. However, if the underwear you’ve happened to wear that day isn’t white, then you can’t be baptized wearing it. The missionaries are supposed to remind the person getting baptized to wear white underwear (and to bring an extra pair, since one set is going to be soaked). Also, the gown is supposed to be thick, but it isn’t always quite thick enough. I baptized several women in Argentina, and vividly remember that after one baptism, they hustled everyone out of the room, because the gown had become translucent, unfortunately.
Great question! There was no penalty for failing to baptize people, because they generally recognized that that was out of your direct control. However, if you failed to reach the quota on number of people contacted, number of hours worked, etc., then you would get a talking to, and asked what the problem was. Each week there was a meeting of missionaries in the zone, and they’d often write everyone’s numbers up on the blackboard as a motivating (and shaming!) tool. If you regularly didn’t make your numbers, you would not advance in the mission hierarchy and be viewed as a slacker. In many missions, they send out a newsletter each month to every missionary, and they recognize who got the most baptisms that month, who had the most street contacts, etc. To me it felt very much like being in sales.
The teaching that man can become a God is definitely not a strawman. In fact, I’d go so far as to say it’s one of Mormonism’s defining (and most unique) doctrines. Now, as far as creating planets and so forth, that’s just speculation and shorthand for the concept as a whole. This is not the first thing that Mormons generally want to talk about, because it seems weird to outsiders, but it is a central part of their faith. The other thing I should mention is that Mormons don’t believe that after you die, poof!, you’re a God. They believe it’s a long and extremely difficult process during which you slowly progress to being God-like (i.e. all-loving and all-knowing).
Ok, I’ll bite. I must say that in reading this thread, I find most of the posters, particularly Erdosian, to be pretty honest and trustworthy as to most facts about the church– calling things as they see them. I do have very different experiences and perspectives from them, certainly less jaded, but when asked for a factual answer, they’ve been mostly spot on.
A little information on my perspective. I currently live in rural Wyoming, a section of the state with a reasonably large LDS population – about 50% LDS, about 2/3rds of those practicing on a reasonably frequent basis. I have lived in other parts of Wyoming where being LDS was in the distinct minority. I have also lived (and attended church) for a long periods of time in New York City, Dallas, and Cleveland.
No to some specific issues:
Some, but mostly from families. I was sent home from my mission early, and I have never faced any problems being socially accepted in church. There may have been some young women who may have refused to date me because of it, but none I know of. (There were young LDS women who refused to date me because they thought I was an unattractive moron, but not because of my mission.) I married a beautiful Bishop’s daughter, who had no problem with my mission return. I currently serve in the church where the large majority of the church leadership never served a mission, including my bishop and some of the Stake President’s assistants. Frankly, I wouldn’t know who went on a mission in my wards unless they told me.
Yes, we really believe some of what you wrote – Christ in the Americas, Some ancestors of the modern Native Americans being Hebrews (not a “lost tribe”), golden plates, visions and revelations. (My response is, “Is this any more jaw dropping than the beliefs of most other faiths?”) We generally do not believe the spin on these things put on by our critics. As far as “scam-artist behavior” and “politically convenient” revelations, generally no – we do recognize that people (including early church leaders) are human and made mistakes, and that God gives revelations when it is needed, and on his own schedule. Most of the negative portrayals of church leaders, both past and present, are seen by the vast majority of active members as being mostly baseless anti-Mormon bashing.
The general member’s attitude toward Polygamy varies on a continuum from viewing it with disgust to being a quaint relic of the past. Mostly, many of us have ancestors who were polygamists and revere our stories about their sacrifices and struggles. You cannot separate the struggle from the person, and that includes Polygamy. As far as modern Fundamentalist Mormon’s go, there is a large strain among the LDS membership that feels they are being singled out and should be left alone, but the majority see them as an embarrassment and find it problematic that so much of the uninformed public confuse them with us.
I’ll write more later, so the posts don’t get too long.
From my experience, I’d have to say your bishop was pretty damn fucked up. I’ve never heard of anything like that. They must have also been pretty scared of you and your dad to just leave a note on the door. I’ve heard lots and lots of stories about weird and creepy behaviour from church members, but this might take the cake.
(Alas, I ran out of time to read more after I got to the quoted post. I’ll have to come back later.)
There seems to be a lot of questions about my garments. Yes, I wear garments under my clothes the vast majority of the time, just as most people wear underwear. A member of the LDS Church doesn’t wear garments unless and until they have gone through a ceremony in the temple known as “the endowment”. They then promise to wear the garment.
The garment serves 3 purposes in my mind:
They are a constant reminder of the promises I made in the Temple.
Wearing them shows God that I am willing to abide by those promises.
They are definite guidelines to make sure the clothes I’m wearing are reasonably modest.
In many respects they serve similar purposes of garments of other faiths, like yamulkas or a Sikh’s turban. They differ, because they are meant to be concealed under your clothes, and are not to be used to “wear your faith for the world to see”.
Growing up LDS, I have occasionally heard stories about garments protecting someone from physical harm, but I and most LDS people I know sort of just treat these stories with eye-rolling, knowing that garments are not effective body armor, nor are they intended to be.
I must say, many members of the LDS Church are reluctant to talk about their garments because they are important to so many and are treated with such disdain by the outside world – calling the “magic underwear” or “angel fruit of the looms” or the like may seem funny to outsiders, but can be very offensive to many members.
Gambling is officially discouraged, but, so far, it doesn’t keep anyone from participating fully in the temple or any other church function. Coming from a horse ranching family, I have spent a lot of time at the track. Though I rarely put money on the horses (more for general lack of faith in my luck than for religious reasons), it has never been brought up. I haveno idea about working in a casino.
No secret police, no matter what Sherlock Holmes would like you to believe.
I don’t know about this. There is a strong and repeated teaching in the Church about keeping chaste and not engaging in sex outside marriage, but not any more than I see from other Christian faiths (and others). It is seen as a problem in tearing families apart, causing social diseases, etc…
As far as the CHurch’s stance on homosexuality, I must admit, it is the hardest part of being LDS for me. I understand the prohibitions on promiscuous homosexuality, just as I understand the prohibitions on promiscuous heterosexuality. I am strongly, and somewhat vocally, in favor of gay marriage and same sex benefits for committed same sex couples. I am a lawyer, and offer free services to commited gay couples in the area who wish to, through estate planning, power-of-attorneys, and contracts, live as closely as they can to a married couple. I advocate for gay marriage in Wyoming (fat chance), and it probably cost me more than a few clients.
Having said that, I am still a strongly committed member of the LDS church, and have a hard time reconciling my faith with my politics. I often pray to understand and accept the Church’s stance, but I still don’t. I must say, that my position has not, to my knowledge, affected my position in the local LDS Chruch, and I am not alone in my position. My faith brings me enough joy and comfort to keep me active despite the position. In church itself, the homosexual issue only comes up in discussion every 6 months or so. I state my position, and everyone just agrees to disagree.
I also want to say that, having read her posts for many years, I find Pepperlandgirl to be a very intelligent and honest voice on her experience with the LDS church. She is a wonderful person to give another viewpoint, and would encourage interested people to search her earlier posts on this topic.
Also, closer to my perspective, Dangermom is another intelligent active member of the Church who often posts on the Dope. Search out her posts for another good, trusted voice.
Oh, thanks, Reloy. I have not spent much time here as I’m not a fan of the whole ‘let’s make funny moronic comments about other people’s underwear’ schtick, and also I was gone most of yesterday and don’t have time to post a lot right now, but I’m always happy to answer honest questions.
