Ask the former Mormon missionary (and current atheist)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
101

Reloy, I really wish you’d made good on your promise to stay out of this thread and allow the former mormons to answer the questions. There have been plenty of ‘Ask the Mormon’ threads on this board; I suggest you start a new one. I understand that you are trying to give accurate answers to these questions, but um… This is sort of like crashing a party and criticizing the host for the choice of decorations. I find it a bit rude.

Also, in response to the 12-year-old who was excommunicated: I totally believe her.

When I was 15, I was abused by my mormon step-brother, who was married and had three children at the time (he was 30). When this was found out, he was excommunicated, but I was placed on probation via a Bishop’s Court. What church punishes a teenager for allowing herself to be raped?

I was told that I was bad and dirty and probably asked for it or deserved it–it was my own fault. Counseling was not recommended nor provided. Charges were not filed and the appropriate authorities (CPS) were not notified. Aside from being exed, my stepbro walked away scot-free (presumably, to abuse again. I do not know where he went or where he is now.). I, on the other hand, was still a member, but ostracized because I could not take the sacrament and had been released from my calling as MIA Maid president.

After six months, I approached my bishop and asked when I would be reinstated. He blinked at me a couple of times – I think he’d forgotten I was under disciplinary action. Then he said that I needed to pray to god to forgive myself. It was my turn to blink blink back at him.

For what? I asked him. I couldn’t figure out what I’d done wrong, aside from not fighting to the death (which is what former prophet Spencer W. Kimball was recommended to abuse victims at that time). Bishop Asshat could not answer that question. He told me to pray and I’d figure it out.

From that day forward, I realized that no diety worth its salt would punish a child for her own abuse and that the mormon church is a scam. I went through the motions until I turned 18 and went off to college and I never went back to church.

I still believe I did nothing wrong and the rape was not my fault. I had to see Good Will Hunting before that realization crystallized for me.

So you carry on questioning the veracity of former mormons’ claims. Your experience is obviously not my experience. That does not mean that either of our experiences are invalid and/or untrue.

102

Missed the edit window:
ETA: I have to explain something. When church leaders catch wind of a member’s wrongdoing – and the only sins that require confession are murder and sex – a bishop’s court is convened. This is where I had to sit in a room, without my parents or any advocate at all, and explain to four middle-aged, perverted men, exactly what happened, down to the last detail. “Did he do this? Did you like it? Did he do that? Did you like it? Are you in love with him? Etc.” It exacerbated the trauma, lemme tellya. Then the Bishopric (the bishop is the head lay guy for the ward, which is the local church house and the bishopric consists of the bishop, his two assistants called counselors, and a secretary who records the proceedings for posterity.) get on their knees and pray to god to decide what to do with the sinner in question. They supposedly receive direct revelation from god about how to handle such cases. Apparently, god decided that I was also responsible for my rape, so god recommended to the bishopric that the excomm my stepbro and put me on probationary status. This is why I no longer believe in god. (I think the logic there is obvious.)

103

Ok, I’m back and have a little time. I just want to add a few scattered thoughts and (sorry) I don’t want to take the time to go back and get quotes (I’m at work, gotta write fast).

About being an atheist in Utah: I became an atheist long after I moved away, so I can’t really speak to that specifically. However, all of my immediate family and most of my extended family are still TBMs living in Idaho and Utah. Only one niece and one aunt (my lesbian aunt) know I’m an atheist. They ALL know I’m a lesbian. I expect to never tell my parents – that would be a lot harder for them to hear and accept that my lesbianism. How’s that for odd?

If anyone’s interested, there’s a site that has gathered stories of ecclesiastical abuse in the Mormon church. It seems to have died as an active site, but there are a lot of interesting stories. http://mormonalliance.org/

Thanks for the link Dogzilla, I sent the link home and I’ll explore later. I still feel connected to the church, I think because it’s a culture as well as a religion. Y’know: you can take the girl out of the church, but. . .

104

Holy crap. Another case of a seriously fucked up bishop! I’m sorry you had to go through that. And greatly grateful that all my experiences in the church were much more sane.

105

I only continued based on the request of NAF1138. Don’t worry, I’m gone. Enjoy the echo chamber.

106

Would it be bad form to link to this thread at postmormon.org and invite those members to this thread? I will not post a thread over there if anyone here thinks that would get my hand slapped.

And JustThinkin’, I gotta say. I’m now quite grateful to have had such a horrific experience. It opened my eyes to the truth. And every time a mormon tries to tell me I was led astray by Stan, I get to tell that story. :smiley:

107

First, thank you Erdosain, for answering my questions, which were admittedly a bit more extensive than I’d originally planned to ask. And thank you, too, Reloy3 for all the information you’ve contributed as well.

I would like to make it clear that I do realize that “Big Love” is about an FLDS group but that the show has led me to pursue more information on LDS in general.

The Sikhs who have been baptized (or received Amrit) also promise to wear special underwear, which is to remind them to stay pure (this is loosely remembered)–a reminder of their faith, along with the turban, a steel bracelet (the kara), the knife (kirpan) and a comb (they don’t cut any of their hair either).

Religion can be a very dangerous ground to tread upon, but this discussion has indeed been quite enlightening so far. Hopefully it will continue to do so. Thanks!

108

There was a query upthread about former mormons who have published about the church. Below is a list of well-respected authors who have written about the church. Some are currently active mormons. Some have been excommunicated. Others were never mormon but their research is corroborative. Keep in mind that a True Believing Mormon would consider much of this material, if not all of it, ‘anti-mormon’ and would either never deign to read it or would attempt to discredit or debunk the claims made within.

Google at will:

Simon Southerton: Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church (Southerton was excommunicated after this came out.)

Jon Krakauer: Under the Banner of Heaven (Krakauer is not a mormon)

Fawn Brodie: No Man Knows My History (married a jew, excommunicated for this book)

Grant Palmer: Insider’s View of Mormonism (disfellowshipped)

D. Michael Quinn: The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (exed as one of the September Six, referenced on page 1 of this thread)

Todd Compton: *In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith *(active member)

109

I wouldn’t mind the link.

I admit, having such a story to tell would definitely make folks think twice about harassing other former Mormons. :smiley:

I’m sort of given a pass on the “led astray” thing.
“Why did you leave the church?”
“Because I’m a lesbian.”
“Oh. Um. Bye.”

110

You can get that at any LDS bookstore. Probably also the Fawn Brodie book, as an interest/research item.

111

Do you mind if I ask about the “moment of realization”? Do you consider yourself an atheist or you just don’t believe church doctrine. Are you still a member?

112

I am aware of this, but I realize most nonmormons might not be. I mention these books out of experience on the post-mormon board; so many posters have cited very negative reactions from mormon friends and family when they were caught with the books above.

Not all mormons react in such a way.

113

A couple things: I don’t own the thread, but I did second NAF1138’s invitation for Reloy3 to stick around and verify/clarify anything that had been said. Reloy3 was certainly not being rude, in my opinion. I still welcome believing Mormons’ participation, but I understand if there’s more interest in the thread having a more critical tone.

I think it’s usually easier for outsiders to see where the truth lies when they can get feedback from both sides; it also helps keep both sides honest.

If the missionary questions are over, I have no problem with the thread focusing more on “messed up things in the Mormon church.” God knows there are enough. As Dogzilla noted, the “Ask a Mormon” threads in the past have tended to be overwhelmingly pro-Mormon (and, IMO, somewhat inaccurate).

Finally, I wanted to express my anger about what happened to Dogzilla. There have been many lawsuits with very similar circumstances (Mormon ecclesiastical leaders covering up sexual abuse by members) and it makes me sick. There’s no excuse for it, and yeah, it happens in other religions too, but it doesn’t make it any less reprehensible.

One of the reasons I am glad I won’t be raising my children Mormon is that I cannot imagine letting a middle-aged man question them (alone!) about whether they masturbate or what they do with their boy/girlfriends. It’s astounding that so many people are cool with that.

114

Well, I took the notion of absolute truth in the church very seriously. When I was told there was nothing to fear in our history, and that we had nothing to hide, I took it seriously. As some point a couple of years ago, I started doing some deep research of my own. And I discovered how slippery the truth really was. It led me to conclude that, no matter what the church actually is - and it is a lot of good things - but no matter what it is, it isn’t what it claims to be. I was completely disoriented by the realization that the Mormon church was basically just another church. People are doing the best they can with what they have, but there is no red phone to heaven.

Atheist? No, not at all. I still believe in a fairly traditional notion of God, and I do still choose to express that belief through a form of Christianity, just not the dogmatic kind. I believe more in personal spiritual truth than absolute spiritual truth, and the broad stroke of Christianity works for me.

Still technically a member and will be probably forever. I don’t see the point in resigning - what would that accomplish? As I said, I am married to a true believer, and I do try to be sensitive to that.

There is a ton of good in the LDS church - as others have said, Mormons are generally very good people. Like I said, members are just trying to do the best they can with what they have. The sticking point for me is the notion that they are God’s chosen people, somehow more special than everybody else, and that they alone have access to spiritual truth.

115

Right. Next time you go to Fast & Testimony meeting… back atcha. :wink:

116

Thanks Reloy3. Actually, through posting about the LDS Church on the Dope, I’ve come to understand that a lot of stuff I considered SOP for the Church was really just the special strain of crazy from Utah Mormons.

And Reloy, thank you for the work you do on behalf of gay and lesbian couples. I think the Church’s stance on homosexuality is absolutely deplorable and disappointing on every level. I wish people who were not bigots would leave the church and take a stand against the leadership.

You probably grew up outside of Salt Lake City, I’m guessing? It’s easier in SLC because there is a good, healthy non-Mormon population (I’m surrounded by non-LDS Churches), and the city is basically living in the 20th century. But once you venture out of SLC, it can be like traveling back in time 100 years. It’s insane. I grew up in a pretty small town, and I wouldn’t have dreamed of trying to leave the Church. There was literally one non-member family in the whole town, and they were treated like absolute freaks. The church was completely interwoven into our lives in every single way. There was no separation at all.

117

No, they always said Holy Father. I particularly noticed it, since I’d have expected them to mention God a lot.

The hotel had two elevator doors off the lobby. I was waiting for one when the other opened. Assuming it was just a normal elevator, I walked to it, since a few young ladies were getting on. A guy with them said this is for the girls. I thought this was kind of a joke and kept walking, and he said it again, clearly upset. I backed away. I observed that only missionary age girls ever got on, and that the normal elevator didn’t stop at floors 2 and 3, I think. The virgin part was a joke, but I assume they are. I guess they are being protected from the other guests - lots of whom are clearly visiting the Temple.

118

Are you sure it wasn’t Heavenly Father? That’s how Mormons usually refer to God the Father.

119

Damn right! I visited SLC as a horney 18 Y/o and visited Temple Square on my own (while dad was visiting the hospitals) and by the end of the tour I was pretty sure I was going to be able to f*** my personal guide…

…and then she showed me the iffing “Book of Mormons” (or whatsitcalled) :frowning:

120

That’s a good analogy. Adherents to many if not most religions do things that may seem to have little practical purpose, but serve to remind the person of their faith. Perhaps a non-sartorial analogy might be keeping Kosher. I mean, what the heck difference does it make, really, if you keep the meat next to the milk. But it does keep the believer mindful. A lot of people are sensitive about being told what to wear or not to wear, so for better or worse the traditional LDS undergarments do draw a lot of idle curiosity at best, and mocking at worst.