Ask the Grammar Harpy

I know all the other “Ask the” threads have been in Great Debates, but this seems to fit here. I have a pretty good knowledge and understanding (as much as anyone can) of English grammar. So ask away!

Note: I undoubtedly will make some grammar errors and/or typos here. We are all human. It just bugs me when people keep making the same mistake over and over, because they don’t know what’s correct.

To start you all off, you do not put an apostrophe before the “s” when you make an acronym plural. It should be “PCs,” not “PC’s.”

Have at it!

Dear Grammar Harpy,

Can you help me understand the rules for using “which” as opposed to “that”?

As in “a book which (or that) was published in 1996.”

The correct sentence is "a book that was published . . . "and so on.

The difference is a bit difficult to explain, but as grammar harpie isn’t here yet, I’ll do my best.

When you’re asking about a specific thing, you use which. Take note:

A: Which book were you discussing?
B: That book.

In other words, when there is more than one thing between which to differentiate, you use which, in my experience. When you are referring to one general thing, you use that.

Another rule of thumb:

Which designates there is something special about a thing. For instance, the book which we are reading (although some grammarians would argue that “which” is redundant there) was published by that author.

There are long entries in lots of grammar books listing sometimes upwards of ten rules for the proper uses of which and that, but in my experience if you pay attention to intelligent people, who usually have a fairly decent grasp of English grammar, you’re not often going to be wrong.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, iampunha. I usually have no problem with grammar – I have been referred to as the “grammar police.” However, I’m writing this paper and I keep messing this one up. I guess it’s my grammar blind spot.

Boy, this is cool - I don’t even have to post answers! Thanks, Iampunha.

If memory serves, “which” is also used when you want to give information that is not critical to your meaning: “The book, which happens to be one of my favorites, was published last year.” If the information is necessary, use “that.” E.g., “Which book do you want?” “The book that is on the top shelf.”

And I’m not a grammar harpy either.

It’s a matter of style. Would you say we are now in the 2000s or the 2000’s? They’re both correct. Apostrophies are definitely used for some plurals, notably letters and numbers.

To me they’ll always be PC’s. Mostly because I like the way it looks better.

Is it grammatically correct to use both an exlamation mark and a question mark at the end of a sentence?

i.e. Are you telling me he has three eyes!?

If it is grammatically correct, is there an order the two marks should follow? Exclamation first? Question mark second? Vice versa?

Re the difference between “which” and “that”: Which is used with unrestrictive clauses, that is used with restrictive clauses. The difference is whether the meaning of the sentence is changed by the clause.

E.g., if I say “Cars that are defective ought to be taken off the roads,” I can’t remove the clause “that are defective” without changing the meaning of the sentence (“Cars ought to be taken off the roads”). It is a restrictive clause, which is why it takes “that”.

However, if I say “Pintos, which are defective, ought to be taken off the roads,” it still means the same thing if I take out the clause (“Pintos ought to be taken off the roads”). It is a non-restrictive clause, which is why it takes “which”.

A second usage of “which” is to describe an entire clause, as in “He told me, which is how I knew.”

As for ?!, I would write ?!, because it is, gramatically speaking, a question, with the ! added only for emphasis.

Apostrophes are correct for plurals?!?!? Never!

Grammar for Postings

  1. The question mark comes first, then the exclamation point. Repeat the pattern until you are done. Finally, it is framed by another question mark. Do not leave out the closing question mark. It reminds the reader that the sentence was a question. Just a loud one. This could have all been solved if the interobang, a combined explanation point/question mark, had been adopted.

  2. Too much emphasis is no emphasis AT ALL. And you can save keystrokes.

  3. Smilies are never appropriate. :wink:

  4. As attractive as it may be, in a steam-of-consciousness way, to build sentences that are as convoluted, and, ultimately, confusing, as possible, do not overuse our eternal, ever-popular, friend, the comma, unless you are vieing for the Bulwer-Lytton award.

  5. And do not start sentences with conjunctions.

  6. Screw the grammar books. The passive voice is good. It was used many times in perfectly good writing.

which?

an apostrophe is used where letters are omitted. how are letters omitted in plurals?

Of course there are apostrophes in some plurals. Wasn’t that in your teachers’ lesson plans, or your school’s guidelines?

And, the which/that question being settled, I will hit the “submit post” button, which is at the bottom of the submit form here… you know, the one that you have to use to reply???

dunce.

of course they are found with plurals. but the apostrophe doesn’t represent a plural. you are not omitting any letters when you pluralise a word.

what do you mean by some plurals?

These days the only correct use of an apostrophe-s to create a plural is for the plurals of single letters: “Mind your p’s and q’s.” Well, there is also the anomalous “do’s and don’ts,” which makes no sense from any viewpoint but is nonetheless the customary style. Anyway.

It was once usual, if not “correct,” to create plurals of initialisms with apostrophes: “He traded his Mac for tow PC’s.” But styles change, and if you insist on your pluralizing apostrophe now you’re likely to be thought old-fashioned at best. At worst, you’ll find yourself with a welcome mat that reads “The Smith’s.”

Catrandom The Editrix

Oops… my mistake.

I read “plurals”, and thought “possesives.” And just when I thought I had a cogent argument going. And now, I think I left something… right over… here!

(sound of footsteps, door opens quickly, then slams shut as Nilvedman reminds himself never to think of grammar after 11:00 ever again)

As far as I see it, you use apostrophes in plurals for such entities as letters, numbers and acronyms.

As far as I see it, you use apostrophes in plurals for such entities as letters, numbers and acronyms.

Lordy, this is going to be a long response.

  1. In my experience as a copy editor and editor for a few publications, and as an editor and overall proofreader for several years now, I have not yet run into an instance where the majority of knowledgeable grammarians apostrophied plurals. Possessives we do apostrophe (if one can use said word as a verb, which may not be grammatically correct).

  2. Kilgore trout: You’re going to loathe me for saying this, but one omits, in some words, a letter in the plural. For example: stadium becomes stadia. Alodium becomes alodia. You see my point, I hope.

  3. However, some words add more than one letter in their plural. Example: virus becomes viruses. Cow becomes cattle.

  4. With respect to the “!?” or “?!” situation, think of it this way: would you end a sentence like this: “.,”? Unless you’re in an informal setting, punctuation goes alone, in my experience.

  5. The idea of adding an apostrophe for the plurals of abbreviations: think of an abbreviation as a word. Then imagine saying "My teacher’s are . . . " This makes me cringe.

I think this is everything. If anyone has a question/argument or anything, feel free to post or email me. I’ll be glad to answer any questions I can.

Then we agree, it is a matter of style. Not correctness.

Please don’t tell me I’m not allowed to put a period outside of an end quote either.

iampunha,

Tell me what you cards you have in a full house with fives over fours without spelling the word five or four.

And not a 5 of hearts, a 5 of diamonds, etc.

your point is valid, but it doesn’t apply to what i was saying. what i meant to say is that there is no need to use an apostrophe when pluralising, as your are not omitting letters. of course, some words change completely when you pluralise them, but i am sure you can see that what is not what i meant.