Part of me wants to start this thread. Part of me is frightened to. Luckily the part that wants to fight ignorance is louder than the part that never wants to make waves in any way.
Right now there are a lot of stereotypes about Mormons, even on this board. This upsets me. I don’t care if people believe Mormons are cultists, going to hell, stupid, whatever. HOWEVER, I do NOT appreciate it when people do NOT get the facts straight. If we’re going to burn in hell, at least get the reasons why correct.
Some stereotypes were formed out of down right meaness, some out of pure ignorance. Some people don’t even realize they are passing along false notions about the LDS Church. That’s why I’m doing this.
THIS IS NOT A DEBATE! You want to debate what I say? Start a new thread. This is to present the facts ACCORDING TO THE BELIEFS OF THE MORMON CHURCH.
Now, if you are not mature enough to read this thread and contribute something worthwhile, logical, and intelligent to this thread, please leave.
Hmmm, I guess I will start with the biggest stereotype.
Joseph Smith was commanded soon after the establishment of the Church to teach polygamy to a select few in the Church. Polygamy was NOT practiced by every Mormon, only people who were CALLED to.
Remember, at the time Polygamy was NOT illegal. Bigamy was. When the Supreme Court finally ruled that polygamy was illegal and unconstitutional, the Church stopped practicing it. As simle as that.
Here are a few reasons why it was practiced.
One: There were more women than men in the Church, for various reasons. However, according to the Church being married is a MUST to reach the highest glory of heaven. So not being married was a serious matter.
Two: When starting a new religion, what is the easiest way to gain members? Have them born into the Church. If all the women were married, all of them were having children.
There is a scripture in the Book of Mormon that supports this (bolding mine) *
Jacob 27 and 30
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have
save it be bone• cwife; and concubines he shall have none;
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts,** raise up aseed• unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto**
That’s why when the Supreme Court told the Church it was committing a crime, there really wasn’t a problem stopping. God told the Prophet that it was no longer expedient to have plural marriage.
Remember, the Mormon Church believes in following the law of the land.
12.We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining
That means we believe God is not going to ask us to break the laws of the land.
Any practicing Mormon that is found to be a polygamist is excommunicated IMMEDIATELY. There is zero tolerance for polygamists because God has said TO STOP IT NOW.
Now, that we’ve got all that cleared up, please feel free to ask questions and make comments. And if you are a Mormon and believe I interpreted this things wrong, please add your point of view. I will admit that as of right now I’m not a practicing member. However, I have studied the scriptures extensively and I used to attend Church and Seminary regularly. Due to personal reasons I have stopped attending Church.
The next myth/stereotype I will conquer is women’s place in the Church. That may not be a very long one, so I think I will also include exactly HOW important the Prophet is in the Church and to our Eternal Salvation.
Part of me wants to start this thread. Part of me is frightened to. Luckily the part that wants to fight ignorance is louder than the part that never wants to make waves in any way.
Do you ever wonder why God suddenly decides to change mormon law at such convenient times for the church? Blacks were allowed into the priesthood right around the civil rights movement, polygamy was outlawed around the time when the mormons wanted Utah as a state, and the drinking of caffeinated coca cola products was deemed OK after serval leading members of the church became purchased stock in Coca Cola. Seems to mean to me that the prophet merely says that he heard the word of God when popular opionion wants the church to change its stand on some issue. Also if the church is so against polygamy then why don’t the police crack down on it around Utah. I lived in SLC and I knew the locations of many polygamist colonies. Why didn’t the police know about these?
While I’m at it, what’s with baptism for the dead? If I heard correctly you guys baptized Hitler so that he would have a change to go to heaven. What’s the point of following God’s path on earth if you can just get baptized after you’re dead and then be redeemed?
I cannot answer the priesthood question myself. Here is a quote I found. I will look harder to find something less vague and more specific though.
As mentioned before, God decides when it’s expedient to have plural marriage and when it’s not. God also commanded us to follow the laws of the land. Because the following things happened: It was no longer necessary to have plural marriage, and it was deemed illegal, God no longer recquired it.
As for the Coca Cola Urban Legend, well, that’s exactly what it is. Check it out at http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/mormon.htm
Even if it wasn’t an UL, there was NEVER any commandment to stay away from caffiene. It’s to stay way from “hot drinks”. People automatically relate caffiene to coffee, therefore they think it’s the caffiene that’s a problem. That is simply not the case.*
Doctrine and Coventants 89:9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly. *
That says nothing about caffiene.
That is NOT how it works.
When you die, you go to Paradise, (kind of like Heaven’s waiting room) if you were NOT LDS and already know God’s principals, laws, etc then you are given a chance to learn. In order to reach the highest glory of Heaven, you must do many things, including being baptized. After you die, if you accept that God is God, Jesus is your Savior etc etc, you need to be baptized. That’s why it’s done in a dead person’s name here on Earth. The person is NOT automatically redeemed, even if all there was to it was baptism. The person is STILL offered a choice, and can STILL refuse to accept Christ. Dying is like falling asleep in one world and waking in the next, your basic attitude does NOT change. I repeat, baptism for the dead does NOT equal redeption and salvation.
As for Hitler being baptized, well I don’t know about that for sure. I will check it out.
God wants to give everybody the chance to learn the truth and reach the highest kingdom of heaven, which is the Celestial kingdom. So that means some us have to do Temple work for the dead here on Earth. But that does NOT mean that the people are automatically saved. They are still given the choice. They still have to repent, etc. They still have to prove their worthliness just like the members on Earth.
I was curious to see that only hot drinks are prohibited, not caffeine. I’m good friends with a very devout mormon and he abstains from any caffeinated drinks. My question also stems from my experience with this friend. We are both 17 years old, but he utterly refuses to see R-rated movies. When we watched Schindler’s List and Saving Private Ryan in history class, he left the room for the days they were playing. I was wondering if there was some church command on this issue, or if it is only his personal choice. I think this is just his belief that’s not being forced on him by his parents, but he doesn’t like to talk about it, so maybe you could help me out. Thanks!
I’m still curious about the polyamory/polygamy thing. Granted the church has said it’s illegal and all, but why can you then find stories done on polygamous marrages shown on 20/20? (Feb 99, I think, the story expired anyway)
If I recall correctly, everyone knows where they are, but there’s not a lot done about it.
Pepper, I’d be interested in you taking a look at this question I asked a little while ago, and seeing if you had ever heard of this as a UL about Mormons:
I will admit I often get Mormons mixed up with Jehova’s Witnesses, so pardon if I ask a stupid question.
My understanding is that Mormons believe that EVERYONE who is not a Mormon is going to hell. Perhaps that is a misconception on my part. But I am curious to wonder, what about everyone who was Christian before the beginning of the Mormon Church…or anyone who was born before Christ for that matter. What happens to them?
Heaven’s Waiting Room. I like that idea. Betcha they got nice toys.
Let me get this straight. One day, Joseph Smith was out walking around and the angel “Moroni” paid him a visit. This angle gives him some stone tablets with whatever on them. Joseph Smith starts the Mormon Church. The angel Moroni “takes the tablets back with him”. How convenient!! IMHO, Joseph Smith was a wacko. Angel “Moroni” indeed! Sounds close to Moron to me.
Spencer Kimball had a revelation alright. Basically, go to jail if you don’t change the ways of the church.
When you die you go to Paradise? Show me THAT in the Bible. Please don’t use the verse where Christ was on the cross and told the thief that today he would be with Him is paradise. You would be using it way out of context.
Sorry if I ruffled anybodies feathers, but that’s the way I see it.
I do want to point out here that I am quite appreciative of Pepperlandgirl to offer us the benefit of her experiences. She has asked each of us not to “flame” Mormonism, but to ask serious questions. I am personally already becoming a bit uncomfortable with SOME of the posts (well, just 2), so I would like to ask that we keep the questions to serious inquiries rather than “It’s stupid” posts.
Let’s try to keep ONE religious post friendly, shall we?
The general rule to follow is don’t drink hot drinks because it can hurt the stomach lining and cause other lesser known health problems. But God does give personal revelations to people, and caffeine IS an addictive drug. People who feel uncomfortable digesting caffeine simply do not. But it’s not mandatory.
The 1st Presidency has asked all LDS members to NOT watch anything more than PG-13, and that’s pushing it. Most movies over that show too much violence, sex, and use profane language. Mormons are urged to stay away from things like that.
There are sects known as Fundemental Mormons, and other sects that claim to branch from the Mormon religion who just cannont accept the fact that polygamy is outlawed by God and by the government. The only thing they share with the LDS religion is the name, and even that’s stolen.
Avalon, this recquires a HUGE answer, but I will give you the gist.
When people die they go to Heaven’s Waiting room. If they were LDS when alive, still sinned and never repented, they go to Hotel Hell. That’s where they pay for their own sins until the Second Coming. If they were NOT Mormons they are taught by “missionaries” about the truth. People on Earth do their Temple work for them and baptize them. That way, when the people are taught, if they accept it, all the work is done for them. If the people do NOT accept the Truth, they too are sent to Hotel Hell where they pay for their own sins.
After Judgement Day God will decide where people go. All people make it to Heaven. Well almost all. The Sons of Perdition go to the Outer Darkness. Anyway, there are three degrees of Heaven. Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. IN GENERAL the people who committed sins of ommision go to the Terrestrial Kingdom. This is the largest kingdom. These people did not accomplish everything expedient to become a God/Goddess, which is the ultimate goal (Celestial Kingdom). They get to know Christ, and everybody are friends. IN GENERAL murderers, and well, people who don’t accept Christ even after they paid for their own sins go to the 3rd Kingdom. None of them can be considered “hell”. Joseph Smith (JS) said that if someone even could glance at the 3rd kingdom, they would kill themselves so they could live there. God loves all of his children, and doesn’t want any of them to be eternally tormented. But in the 3rd Kingdom everybody is lonely. No friends, lovers, or family allowed.
No, somebody was pulling your leg. Tattoos are severly frowned upon, if not completely outlawed. Body piercing too. Bodies are considered Temples for the Lord. You wouldn’t go out there and paint graffitti over your Church would you? It’s the same concept.
my85car, you are completely wrong about everything you posted. If you have a legit question and you want an answer, be free to ask. Otherwise, please don’t post here again. I want to keep this peaceful and answer questions, not start debates.
What makes someone a Son of Perdition?
I am not trying to fuel a debate, or put down Mormonism. But I wanted to add a little more information about Joseph Smith and the different factions of “Mormonism”.
I am not unfamiliar with the RLDS chuch, a semi-large church (with it’s own factions) that has the same “roots” as the LDS church. (R.L.D.S. stands for “Reorganized Latter Day Saint”.) The RLDS church differs in many ways from the LDS, yet people have a hard time telling them apart.
The RLDS church disputes this. After Joseph Smith was killed, his widow and son (Joseph Smith III, the son Joseph had designated as his successor) did not go with Brigham Young to Salt Lake City. They stayed behind, and eventually the RLDS church was formed. The RLDS church insists that Joseph never promoted polygamy, in fact, he had nothing to do with it. It was entirely the idea of Brigham Young.
I was looking for links to show the RLDS viewpoint, but found so many conflicting pages - very confusing. Both these churches were founded many years ago, many documents out there. Some of them are obviously untrue - there are probably forged accounts, fuzzy recollections, etc. The fact that the RLDS and LDS churches both have “proof” that contradicts each other is evidence of that. I will have to spend time looking for more links.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out, not everyone believes that Joseph Smith Jr. was “inspired” to teach polygamy.
How do you know the terrestial kingdom is the biggest kingdom?
If a mormon doesent marry another mormon where does that mormon go? Im guessing hell. Oh yeah one more thing. Is there any proof of mormonism? (by proof i mean that in a very loose term as in like they werent just personal visions that could have just been madmen) but the visions affected like either a group of people or left behind some tangible proof?
Okay. I am not baptized yet, but I will be.
My question is about the preisthood authority.
I was taught(and from the Bible) that all beleivers are priests, including women meaning they can pray over someone,etc.
Where does it say that only certain men have the preisthood authority? Does it say this in the Bible?
Thank you miss landgirl.
I have to ask – magic spectacles, any truth to this?
Now… the story I heard was this… after Joseph Smith discovered the plates of gold (whilst ploughing?), he was able to translate them perfectly because God gave him a pair of magic spectacles… original of book (and presumably spectacles) were later taken back into heaven.
I quizzed an ex-LDS, ex-flatmate about this once but he didn’t know about it. (Actually he wasn’t ex-LDS at the time… he got to be that later, after he told the church he was gay).
A pair of rocks (with some special abilities) have also been mentioned. Are they different stories about the same things? Or different things? Or just LDS urban legend and someone was pulling my leg? What’s the 'Dope?
Well! That was quick!
Found some good links discussing the differences between RLDS and LDS. I found a page with transcripts written by Joseph Smith’s grandson (or great-grandson - but I think grandson) who was leader of the RLDS church about 50 years ago.
Anyway…on polygamy: http://members.aol.com/OGRB/persist3.html
General differences: http://members.aol.com/OGRB/persist.html
From what I hear the “mainstream” RLDS church has changed a lot since this document was written. But they still denounce polygamy.
Cain is a good example of this. Someone who literally WALKS with God. Someone who talks with God, FACE TO FACE, and then sins against him. The only way this is possible is if one has the priesthood. Right now, I think the only people who could possibly Son’s of Perdition are the Modern Day Prophets. So few people are going the Outer Darkness.
This is a long story. I’ll try to keep it to the point.
Emma Smith loved Joseph more than anything. And Joseph loved her almost as much, if not as much as he loved God. Joseph HATED the idea of plural marriage. Of all of his commandments, he wrestled with this one the most. Emma was even less thrilled. She did not accept it. I don’t blame her. She led a very very hard life, one few of us could even imagine.She was not keen on sharing her husband. So Joseph was forced to marry in secret, I think he had something like 22 wives. He did not have children with any of them though.
But then she did accept it, so Joseph was slightly more open with it. Then she changed her mind again, and literally pushed one his wives down the stairs. After that he kept it a secret again. In her mind, plural marriage was the sole reason that JS was killed. She may have been right.
The only thing she disliked as much as plural marriage was Brigham Young. (BY) BY was stubborn as a mule, headstrong, and loudspoken with his opinions. The two of them never got along.
When JS died and BY was chosen to take his place, that added insult to injury. Emma could not handle it, so she helped created the RLDS, and lived the rest of her life telling herself that JS never had any wives. But he did.
Mainly because the majority of the people commit sins of omission. This is where the whole “But he/she is a good person” argument comes into play. They will spend eternity with their friends, in JC’s company, but they do not reach the highest glory. Of course, this is in general, and I have no idea what God will ultimately do.
They just don’t reach the highest Glory of heaven and become God/Goddess. Like I said before, there is no “hell for eternity”. FTR, there are 3 levels of the Celestial Kingdom. I’m sure the Good Mormons who do not marry in the Church might end up in one the lesser levels of the Celestial Kingdom. Of course, I don’t persume to know the mind of God and these are just educated guesses.
Depends on what you mean. To me The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants are some tangible proof. I have my own personal experiences, but never any real visions.
It’s a matter of faith. Living in Utah all my life, it seems I saw small miracles all of the time. People who were going to DIE who received priesthood blessings and weren’t even sick after that. These were people I KNEW. But I can’t prove that to you. So it’s a matter of faith.
I don’t have the actual quotes right now, but this is what I was taught in the Church.
Men NEED the Priesthood, Women do not. Women automatically have it because the create life, which is the closest thing to God on Earth. Through women’s love of their children and faith in the Lord, they can pray for their Children, bless them, and basically do whatever is necessary. That’s what men do with the Priesthood. Women do not hold office in the Church because they don’t need to. Women are reverred and exalted in the Church because they are Mothers, and in the Mormon Church NOTHING is more important than the family. It may seem like the President and Prophet is the most important person in the Church, but he’s not. He’s the most important MAN. All the faithful women of the Church are equally important as each other, and when it comes down to it, more important than any man in the Church.
Ok, this is long. I will answer Appollyon’s question in a new post.
Pepperland girl wrote:
Never heard this before, Pepper. I’m inactive LDS, but no one ever taught me the above concepts about the telestial kingdom. No friends? Are you sure about this? Don’t you think one would make friends after dwelling with other telestials after a while? Not sure about this myself, but I think that since the telestial kingdom is a kingdom of God (even though it is the least of all such kingdoms), it is a beautiful, wonderful place that is full of brotherhood and love towards one’s fellow man. Otherwise, why would anyone want to go there (kill themselves to get there?)? Granted, there would be restrictions placed on each individual, according to his sins, but I really don’t believe that one would never make friends there.
Magic spectacles huh? I GUESS you could call them that, but not really.
I think we need to start at the beginning.
When Joseph Smith was 14 there was a huge religious revival going on in Upstate New York. But JS was confused. All of the Churches had different views, but they all professed to believe in the same person. He didn’t know where to go, or what to think. His father told him to “Go to one and all, but tie yourself to none.” This wasn’t good enough for 14 year old Joseph, so he decided to search the Bible.
From Pearl of Great Price. Joseph Smith History
So JS went to the “Sacred Grove” and prayed. First Satan attacked him and tried to kill him. But then he saw God the Father and God the Son.
(Fast forward 2 years)
JS was praying for guidance again because he was being persecuted for relating his vision. The angel Moroni visits him and tells him of some Golden Plates hidden in the Hill Camorah, under a large rock.
JS is told to find the plates, but he cannot take them. Every year for four years he returns to that spot and is counciled to by Moroni. Finally he is allowed to take the plates and begin translating them.
Here is where the “Magical Spectacles” come into play.
From *Pearl of Great Price. Joseph Smith History *
The Urim and Thummin are what was used to translate the ancient language. To give you a better idea of what those are, I found these cross-references.
These, along with the Golden Plates were taken back to heaven after JS was done with them. When I asked a seminary teacher if it wouldn’t make more sense to use the Golden Plates as evidence he said.
“Would it really make a difference? You either believe it’s the word of God or not, based on faith. I could have all kinds of logical proof and evidence, but that won’t convince the non-believers.”
He had a point.
Ok, gotta tackle Snark’s questions with the next post
Ok, here’s the logic behind being lonely there. You reach the Celestial kingdom for various reasons, one because you are sealed with your Family, so you are never lonely.
If you are sealed with family, then you wouldn’t be the Telestial to begin with.I guess it’s possible, but certianly wouldn’t be normal.
Here’s what the D&C says about the Telestial Kingdom
So, there are going to be a LOT of people in the 3rd Kingdom, all of the wicked people who deserve to “Burn in hell.”
Not only can they NOT dwell with God, they are also basically servents to the Souls of the Most High. Guess that’s better than buring in hell for all eternity.