I believe that this is right, it’s like any number of short sighted bottom line practices. We might not pay for for these practices today, but we’ll pay for them tomorrow, or our children will.
ok, the Poultry farming - Wikipedia article says that yes, the bedding is there “to deal with chicken droppings and to allow for easier cleanup”.
Further, this article is silent on the question of mechanization of feces removal from coops, including on the ideas I have cited upthread involving raising chickens in machine-cleanable troughs.
The Battery cage - Wikipedia article says (about egg chickens):
Note especially the claim of elimination of internal parasites, which ties into our related discussion in this thread. Also, the photo in this article shows cages arrayed in what looks like at least two levels (shelves), presumably with manure removal system (not clearly pictured) under the upper cages and above the lower ones.
Further, unfortunately no hard numbers are cited. It remains unclear just how expensive is it to clean out feces from coops vs how expensive is it to build and operate these battery cages.
Overall, both our thread so far and these articles reinforce in me the impression that the single biggest unsolved “actual problem” (to quote Pullet’s post 90) in chicken farming is the handling of feces. Hence, if we are interested in anticipating or creating “revolutionary” developments in the field, that should be the main area of focus. Presumably the hypothetical system for growing meat chickens in conditions similar to battery cages which I have been discussing upthread would (if it ever materializes) be some clever variation on this general feces removal theme.
Hey code_grey, maybe it’s time to go start your own thread. I want to learn more about pastured chickens.
then why don’t you ask some questions about them? The last question about pastured chickens was asked a few days ago, so admittedly it’s hard to learn more on the subject.
Most if not all of my questions about pastured chickens have been answered. I was happy to read the OP’s contributions to this thread. Yours, not so much. Other posters have been very polite and informative humouring you. But really, I think you would be better served in a thread of your own.
code_grey:
I have to admit that I am getting frustrated that you don’t seem to be assimilating the information I already gave you.
I’m not going to give you a detailed price break down on stuff because 1) it varies widely depending on the specifics of the farm, 2) it’s not within the scope of this thread and 3) because you don’t seem to be accepting the baseline truths of the situation in the first place.
I’m going to try restating these truths one more time. Maybe a list format will get them across.
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All chicks are initially kept on the floor until they reach their finished size. There is no other way to keep them in the numbers that we keep them.
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Keeping birds on the floor can be done with minimal disease to the birds if it is done properly. There is no way to completely eliminate disease for the number of birds we keep. This is not a feces problem. This is a reality problem if we want to keep having the number of birds we have.
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There are different, equally valid ways of minimizing disease. Which techniques a producer chooses depends on multiple factors, some of which the producer has control over and some of which she doesn’t. Sometimes they choose to use antibiotics and sometimes they don’t. NO SITUATION, Not One, requires changing out the litter while the birds are in the space. (The OP’s technique of pastured poultry is the only one that comes close and, as already discussed, this technique is not applicable to large scale farming)
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ADULT MEAT CHICKENS CANNOT BE KEPT IN CAGES!
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Some places choose to keep egg laying birds in cages once they start laying eggs because this is the most labor efficient way to keep the eggs clean and the chickens physically healthy. The psychological health of the birds in this system is debatable.
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Yeah, it’s possible to have a two-story building for meat birds or stacked battery cages for egg layers. That’s one of those many factors that a producer chooses between when designing their facility.
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You are not going to revolutionize the poultry industry when you are so unfamiliar with birds that you don’t know how many holes they have on their ass.
Access and knowledge about good quality food is a big problem in multiple ways. Thinking about all the many facets that problem can be examined from makes me tired.
To be honest, the only solution my feeble brain can come up with is to have less demand, either by convincing everyone to eat less meat or to have fewer people in total. And, eating less meat is only possible for those folks with the luxury of choosing what they get to eat.
Pullet, questions inspired by your post 126:
Why do baby chicks, even of the egg chickens, have to be grown in coops and not in separate cages? Is it a matter of the difficulty of changing the mesh size of the cage floor as their feet grow? Or a matter of excessive cost of cages themselves which are not offset, at this stage of their life, by any benefit from caging?
At what age does a meat chicken become “adult”? (as per your bullet point 4 in post 126). Also, regardless of that point, does the meat chicken industry even have a distinct notion of “adult” nowadays or do they generally think of the chickens as growing monotonically up to the moment of slaughter?
Your claims that cages are “equally valid” with some other alternative methods of housing apparently contradict the wikipedia article’s opinions cited in my post 122, namely that cages make the process of keeping those chickens that can live in them a whole lot less labor intensive. Apparently, the benefit in labor savings is important even at the current low American wages, and presumably it would be even more important in a high wage environment (e.g. Western Europe or Japan). Right? 
(and yeah, I get it, at this given moment there is no cheap, mechanized way of cleaning up feces after meat chickens in the same way as the cage and the manure-removal system under it “cleans up” feces after egg chickens - a real shame, I guess)
Did you miss the part where a moderator told you to take it to another thread, code_grey?
Moving right along.
Are “organic” chickens really all that? I guess you’re the real deal, but every time I see “organic” on a label in a supermarket, my doper bullshit senses start tingling and I wonder if they really mean “we left the sick ones to die and only feed you those that make it to the end”.
code_grey, I’ve told you once, I’m now telling you again: If you have questions about chickens and their execretory practices, start a new thread in General Questions. You are off-topic in this thread. If I come back in here again, it will be to give you a warning for ignoring moderator instructions.
twickster, MPSIMS moderator
I don’t understand what this means…would it be preferable to sell the ones that died of parasites or bacterial infection to the public, too?
Code_Grey, I have a simple solution to your questions that doesn’t involve any additional reading on your part and will be absolutely free for you.
PM me your mailing address and I will happily send you a sample box of chicken shit and bedding to examine at your leisure.
In fact, I’d be* delighted *to do do.
I could get in in the mail by Wednesday.
Basically, don’t feed the birds antibiotics, but don’t do anything else different from factory farming either. Far more losses due to disease, but you get to sell whatever remains (likely not in the pink of health) as “organic” at some ridiculous markup.
Why doesn’t this board have a “like” button yet??!!
Ah, okay. Good question, then.
Personally, I wouldn’t give away any of our chicken shit. We have four hens that lay fantastic eggs, and eat up any leftovers we would otherwise toss in the garbage. We compost their manure and get perfect high nitrogen fertilizer.
About how many eggs do “backyard” chickens lay per year? I know that battery chickens don’t lay an egg every day. My husband kind of wants to have a backyard flock, but I am resisting this, mainly because I HAVE collected eggs from a neighbor’s flock. Also because I have had personal experience with chicken shit (same flock).
I am rather astonished that there’s no good market for the chicken heads and innards and feet. Even if you can’t get the cost back, could you maybe donate them to a soup kitchen or something, and at least get a tax writeoff?
Our hens lay close to an egg a day each in the spring, summer, and early fall. We do not supplement their light, so they get winters off. With four hens, and just two humans, that means the dogs get eggs every so often as a treat.
Do you keep any roosters, jlzania? I’m sure you end up with some, because sexing chicks still isn’t 100% accurate, but I’m curious what you do with them.
When I had my little flock, I kept a rooster, and it was an aggressive, nasty bird. I’ve heard very few people say nice things about them.
Storey’s guide to raising chickens is a pretty good one. I learned a lot from it. If you’re still reading this thread, code_grey, I’d recommend that book.