I must admit that I am not a lawyer, so I have no insight into that part of this debate. In addition, it has not been challenged in court yet, so I don’t know what to tell you. But, I do know one thing, wiretapping is totally different. This does not mean that one day this will be included along with wiretapping. I’ll have to watch new legal updates. I have not used “the hound” for almost a year now. So I’ll try to find out. But, the last time we used it, those were the guidelines given to us by counsel.
I have never encountered the green goblin, but I must say there are many times the criminals are doing something wrong, I just know it, but I cannot get the evidence on them. This is when the thought of stamping on some civil rights always slips in, but once again, it is not worth it. The price of freedom is crime and I accepted that reality a long time ago. I liken alot of criminal investigations to Sun Tzu and if I wait by the river long enough and they will float down to me. Criminals get greedy, comfortable and they make mistakes. That is what I wait for. The beauty of the situation is that there are very few “one strike” criminals. Once you have been corrupted, you will do it again and again.
Lizard, I would imagine the GPS tracking device has to be relaying and/or recording movement information somehow or it is of little practical use to an investigator. In any case I don’t want to hijack this interesting thread that Mr. Lissa has been so kind to open with with this tangential question about the legality of bugging citizens cars with GPS devices, I have so I have opened a GQ thread to address it.
Please let me know anything you find. I have only my superiors to inform me of this. I will bring it up again Monday. Quite frankly, I am curious myself.
Once again, let me reiterate that I never used this method when i was a PI, and I am not sure what the legality of the issue would be in that context. But one poster was correct when they said that some PI’s are less scrupulous and would not ever try to use the thing in court. If you never knew it was there, you cannot protest.
Actually, it was a Wendy’s the first time, and McDonald’s the second. And think of the odds of running into you, twice, at random, twenty miles out of town! When you offered to model your recent clothing purchases, well, it would have been rude to turn you down, and the motel manager was understanding.
A year ago I flew to New York to brief a P.I. The daughter of the owner of the company was a student there, who’d been blowing through thousands of dollars a month in cash, had dropped out of classes while accepting checks for tuition for $30,000, etc… a common story, I’m told, with the children of billionaire industrialists from foreign countries.
My boss thought she’d become a hooker. Her mother thought she was a Hare Krishna. Her father just wanted to know what the hell was going on, since every time he flew there to talk to her, she refused to allow him into her apartment. My boss arranged, through our lawyers, to hire a P.I. The P.I. went to her building in Manhattan (rent ~$3,000/month), and grilled the doorman, trying to buy the information with $100 bills.
The doorman accepted the money, told the P.I. to go fuck himself, and then reported the interrogation to the building manager and the daughter. More falling out with her parents ensues.
Part of the issue was that, despite monthly checks for her rent, she hadn’t paid it in months; then she moved into a hotel. The building owner hired a P.I. to find her, and he came to my boss (as the guarantor on the lease). The company paid off her debt, and arranged another apartment.
We then hired the second P.I. to investigate her. When I met him, he excoriated the first P.I. (to me) for going to the doorman, saying that doorman are the worst sources of information around: they take your money and lie, and then go to the tenant and take more money to keep their mouth shut. True, in your experience?
Second, he said a lot of P.I. work in large cities is tracking the children of rich folks from other countries, because the kids blow off school and lead a party lifestyle. The second P.I. said he’d personally grabbed a Japanese kid after a night of partying, told him he was cut off, and put him on a plane home without even a trip back to his apartment. Have you heard of this?
The second P.I. said that the best source of information was to have good business relationships with the people you’re trying to pump for information. He said that he did a lot of debt collection for landlords in New York; in return, this gave him a well of info on anyone living in one of their buildings. Does that sound right?
My overall impression, having spent an afternoon talking to the second P.I., was that I had no clue whatsoever in how to evaluate whether or not he was a real investigator or a bullshit artist. When someone wants to hire a P.I., how should they evaluate them, since they’re probably not at all familiar with the difference between a good P.I. and a bad P.I. (the second and the first, respectively)?
[To finish the story, the daughter still lives in New York, still spends around $10,000 a month with nothing to show for it, is or is not in school, and works at a crappy little coffee shop less than full-time. My own take: she’s the incompetent daughter of money who fantasizes about independence but has no clue how to live on her own, unless all that money is going into a bank account somewhere so she can one day tell her Dad she doesn’t need him any more.]
Damn! I figured with all the super villains on TV and in the movies, they must be pretty common, and criminal masterminds must be a dime a dozen! Instead, they’re lazy and greedy. There go my Hollywood illusions … first I find out Liberace is gay, and now this!
First issue: Doorman. I have never had the experience of dealing with doormen, but something about the first PI’s story bothers me. First, why did he give him the money BEFORE getting the info he wanted. That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Furthermore, a PI in New York should understand how something like that should work in a major city. Secondly, why did he flash around $100.'s. did you guys give him an expense account from hell with no reckoning? I have a strange feeling that he might have just pocketed that part of the expense account. Third, I only had to pay informnts a few times. Why would you go up to a door man, who knows the subject more than you, and start asking questions and offering money. I liken this to the bartendar story I said earlier. A bartender who knows the subject real well is going to be more loyal to a client than to you. You have to be very careful in that situation. The only way I would approach a doorman, would be under the guise of a friend or relative looking for her. But, before I approached him, I would have found out enough independent information so that my story would be believable. In other words, what the first PI said made absolutely no sense to me and I think you got hamstrung. Greasing palms is sometimes necessary, but it does not work like that pseudo-hollywood bullshit. Any person who goes around flipping hundreds without good questions, background and research is an idiot who is just waiting to be taken. But, if he had an expense account, he knew how to milk your company.
Second, I have not had experience with grabbing rich, bratty, party-life kids and sending them back home. I don’t imagine this would be untrue for some of the high priced, city PI’s. But, we must always remember, a PI does not have much power. They have to be real careful. What if that kid would have resisted? What power did he have to compel the kid? Most likely, if the story is true, he convinced the kid that he was in big trouble. In reality, for your situation, that seems like the problem. The parent, in your case, is still giving her money and providing living arrangements. I would imagine that if a father/mother gave me the power, as a PI, to cut them off and the kid beleived me, they might be heading home to try and work over the parents. Japanese culture is very different than American culture and an American youth might just tell you to kiss off.
Third, it is indeed very true that your best sources of information come from respected and friendly contacts. These include any part of your history of relationships with people who have access to places where information is traded. If he did collect for landlords, he would have some great connections. (ask him for resume to prove this job if you are really curious and then check his references) Many PI’s, good ones, get their reputations this way by having reliable and inexpensive sources of information. Law enforcement, credit agencies, hospitals, cleaning staff etc… are all great sources of information. So are secretary’s and janitors. I have always said the key to any company is the secretary and the janitor. If you have a dispatch officer, or secretary in a police station that is a friend, you have the whole city police department as a source of information. It all depends how much they are going to give you and what rules they will break. You see, the doorman knows the subject, but maybe the plumbing contractor who works the building does not give a hoot who the heck this girl is and he only sees her as a rich uppity B****. If you can relate to them, you might find out about how the place looks, who frequents there, what type of problems do they have with utilities and plumbing. All of these can be useful depending upon the investigation. People who have no vested interest in the subject are the best sources of information. People who do have an interest, like door man, building operator, etc… are the worst, IMHO.
Evaluating a PI is hard question to answer. I see no problem with making the PI outline their strategy to you during the conference. Many times, clients were more likely to give me money if I told them exactly what and how I was going to accomplish the goal. A PI will normally not reveal too much information, but you should walk away knowing what their plan of action is. I offered a service to have daily or weekly reports sent to the client for an extra $10 per report. Even if they did not request this service, I always outlined everything I had done that day and kept notes. If a PI is not willing to do this, I would start to question them. Asking for references is sometimes ok, but a lot of PI work is very secretive and clients want privacy. However, I was surprised at how many times a client would say, “hey thanks man, if you ever need a reference have them give me a call”. If, during your conference, they tell you their strategy is just to throw around your expense account in the hopes of getting info, I would have to question that. To find out what this girl is doing, it is obvious to me that he has got to tail her and find out where she goes. He also needs to get a credit report to learn about spending habits. Grabbing trash would be great and tracking down the people who come and go from her apartment would be critical. To me, if your boss wants to find out the truth, they will have to hire a PI who does not promise quick results and does not breeze over the reality that it could be quite expensive. It took me months sometimes to expose an affair. It also sometimes took alot of long nights staking out to get proper info.
Indeed, one of the most frustrating things about investigating criminal activity is the total unreliability of the subjects. You may set up an entire task force to track some guy for an entire day, waiting for a deal to go down, only to realize that he used the product last night, slept in and will not be able to deliver for a few more days. Even the criminals cannot count on the other criminals and this makes it very hard to allocate resources on a case. There has been many a time when we just stopped pursuing the investigation on a subject because he was so bloody incompetent that every time we tried to prepare surveillance or get a warrant, he did not come through with committing the crime. The way I look at it, if their that bad, they probably only get one over on us every once in a while.
I remember one time when a parolee sent a photo of himself into another inmate in prison bragging about all the drug deals and money he has made. He took pictures of him and a buddy with 5k lined up on the ground and 6 bags of heroin and 3 bags of marijuana. He was also standing next to a car, that when we ran the plates, came back as stolen. When we arrested him at his house, we recovered the car getting chopped up in the garage, about 3k (we could read some of the serial numbers on the bills in the picture and matched them up) and some cocaine. Needless to say, he’s back out of a prison again after a 6 month junket. Gotta love that revolving door of the CJS.
Why does this situation arise? I can see male staff getting sex from female inmates in return for favors, or via threats. But what’s the incentive for female staff?
When you say “many of your cases”, are you implying that this is a common occurance?
You are missing an extremely important part of the equation. Infatuation and even love. Yes, female staff become infatuated with male inmates. They fall for them, bring drugs in, have sex with them, bring them various items such as food and shoes, help them fight their cases in court and even after losing their jobs (and marriages) sometimes, they will continue the relationship. It might surprise to realize that my very first case as an investigator was one in which a married man was in love with a male inmate in the prison. He even went as far as to offer him a chance to escape. I remember one case where the woman was so in love with the inmate that she smuggled in a gun to him and then became a “friendly hostage”. we caught it before it could escalate, but she brought in a uniform for him that she had altered and made a fake ID. She then planned to walk out with him and if somebody challenged them he would use the gun to “take her hostage”.
How do I explain this? Well, there are a lot of very unhappy people in the world. Thousands of women stay married to, date and meet men in prison. Thus, it is not illogical to conclude that employees would be susceptible to the same thing. Since I have been an investigator, I can’t remember exactly, but I think I have fired 11-15 men and women for inapprorpiate relationships with inmates. They have done all of the aforementioned for their men in prison and I expect that in any prison, at any given time, there are at least 2-5 active cases of men/women employees having relationships with the inmates. These relationships may vary in their seriousness (some do not go to the sexual end of the spectrum). You must remember, in most states, for a staff member to have sex with an inmate is considered a sex offense because the inmate is technically a victim of a person in a more powerful position. i.e Rapo
I have no research besides personal experience to back up my own theory, but I feel that the typical person to have a relationship with an inmate is usually
1)the cross-gender in the prison (male staff/female inmate; female staff/male inmate).
2) The individual is usually having personal problems. Relationship issues, financial strife, familial dissatisifaction.
3) They are sometimes the people who are the hardest on the inmates.
4) They usually are less than attractive people who have a history of difficult relationships. Many of them are abused by partners.
5) They usually want power in a relationship. Let me explain. Women who typically engage in relationships with inmates (even those who are not employees- unless the relationship began before the person was in prison) have had a tough time relating to men on an equal level on the outside. You see, in a prison, the inmate is totally focused on you. They will promise you anything, tell you that they love undyingly, tell you that you are focus of their lives AND in reality, you really are. A felon in prison has nothing else to cling to and you become it. You become the focus of their lives, idealized and revered. Many times I have likened the actions of the employee to that of a highschool teen. They pass notes, giggle, try to “show up” where the inmate is, follow them around, have go-betweens and talk/write about intense sexual fantasies. Finally, and most importantly, the woman has total control of the relationship. She chooses when she will talk to him and she knows that he cannot ever intrude upon her outside life (or usually will not). She does not have to worry about late night phone calls and she always knows where he is at all times. She can feel more secure in the reality that he is unlikely to “cheat” on her. Regrettably, the women do not realize that he may be having homosexual sex at the same time. She also has a powerful position over him in the prison and that could be very inviting. This is the power dynamic that I think exists in many of these relationship.
If you add all of these factors up you have individuals with low self-esteem, negative realtionships, hard luck and a desire to be wanted above all else. That is a dangerous combination in a prison environment. Inmates are conniving, many times evil and very manipulative. Add this all to the fact that men in prison can be attractive, muscular and usually represent the epitomy of masculinity (strong, violent, aggressive). As the saying goes, why do women like bad men, I don’t know why, but that tendency definetely relates to this.
As for the one man I have removed for a sexual relationship. I believe the power and unhappiness played in as well. Here was a closet homosexual with a wife and children. His true lifestyle was not supported by his real life and the prison offered him an alternate reality to live that fantasy. Plus, he knew that the inmate was serving 20+ years and the chances of his inside life, meeting his outside life were slim.
Many people crave excitement in relationships and a prison romance is definitely exciting. I remember one 56 year old female correctional officer who was one of the best officers we had. She was firm, but fair and she ran her block perfectly for 23 years. She became infatuated with a male inmate and they passed love notes. Her husband had left her five years prior and she was very distressed. She had an isolated home existence and she needed something new and she was corrupted by a maggot- and I say maggot because he was a real slick piece of crap that really played her. That was the only case I ever had where i really felt bad for the subject. I still do to this day. She was the only subject i ever had that confessed immediately, answered all questions truthfully and we accepted her resignation rather than firing her.
So, this is a common occurrence, but one should not walk away with this judging correctional staff. We are placed in one of the most dangerous and difficult environments to work that exist. We recruit for entry positions from a very diverse group of individuals that are no always the best of the best. BUT, we operate prisons very efficiently and keep the public safe. Furthermore, the majority of employees are devoted public servants who truly follow the rules, tow the line, treat the prisoners properly and really serve the public.
BTW- I personally consider having a relationship with an inmate one of the worst offenses a prison employee can committ. They violate not only work rules, but the important trust that allows us to maintain the “gray line of professionalism”.
In the other thread you mentioned you used the license plate to obtain the driver’s name and address. Where did you go to do that search? Is that sort of info in the public domain? How much (if anything) does it cost to get that sort of info?
Hubby’s at work-- I’ll tell him about this when he gets home, but for now, I’ll tell you what I know.
In some states, that information is public record. (That’s how a stalker found and killed actress Rebecca Shaefer years ago). I know in my state you have to fill out and mail in a form if you want your informaton kept out of the public system. Most people don’t bother.
I think all you would have to do is contact your local BMV. They could give you the address to which you need to write in order to get the information. I’m not sure if there woud be any cost.
Do the prisoners brew up pruno? How do they manage?
What is the “economy” in the prisons you know about, ie can they earn money? do they have jobs, ie like the prison laundry or for outside industry? If they earn, is it paid in money or script? How much an hour?
Drugs get into prisons through a multitude of means. It can be brought in by staff. But it also comes in from packages and visitors. I even had a few cases where individuals were opening tennis balls, stuffing dope inside, running up to the fence line and throwing it over the fence for later recovery by the inmates on the yard. There are also very unique ways the inmates design to get drugs, like having ex-felon associates working in warehouses and distributions shops that do business with prisons. Then they hide the contraband on an incoming vehicle or delivery.
Hooch is a common occurrence in prison. The prisoners will ferment tomato juice or fruit juice and then drink it. It smells and tastes pretty nasty.
Yes, they earn 18-22 dollars a month. Some, who work in prison industries can make about 100 or more a month depending on wehther or not thet get overtime. Their money is credited to an account they can access at the commissary or send out of the prison to order books, clothes or even just to give to people they know. I think their wage averages about .10 to .20 cents an hour.
You speak of the many affairs you’ve uncovered, providing crucial proof to allow a substantiated accusation. Have you ever turned up antiproof? Ever prove that a person wasn’t bonking the trainer, screwing the inmate, ripping off the company, whatever? In the case of emotional issues such as affairs, how did the clients handle it when you told them that the wife is really, as she says, just an avid aerobicist?
Having waded through most of this thread, and skimmed only occasionally, I have a question for the P.I.
What about ethical concerns? Do you take just any assignment and take the client’s word for it when they tell you a legitimate-sounding reason they are hiring you? Do you have a don’t-ask-don’t tell policy? In other words, if someone hires you to spy on another person, unearth their past records and whatnot, claiming the subject (victim??) is an ex-lover who owes them child-support, for instance, do you verify this?
The reason I’m asking is that people do not always hire P.I.'s for totally legitimate causes. Do you (meaning P.I.'s in general) make it your policy to make sure that the client’s concerns are above board? What if the client is a stalker who wants to find out as much as possible about the subject (victim) for not-so-kosher reasons? And, if you inadvertently help out a stalker who misuses the information you unearth for him, will you accept responsibility? Can the law force you to do so?
Secondly, I have a few general comments regarding this entire subject of privacy. I find it a little disturbing that some people apparently take the attitude of, “It’s public information, therefore I’m within my rights to dig around in another person’s private affairs.” My opinion is that just because something is legal does not automatically make it ethical. I think it is severe rationalizing to say that once something is out there on public record, it’s fair game and anything goes.
This is just more proof that we don’t have too many laws, as some people always claim, but not enough laws. This is proof that people will literally do anything they can legally get away with, rationalizing that it is “legal”. I have no doubt that some people who take this stance will have no trouble overstepping the increasingly blurry line between the simply unethical to the downright illegal.
Sure, much information is public. But if you have to sneak around behind the subject’s (victim’s?) back to get it, that is a red flag. If your motives are entirely innocent, you can simply ask the subject whatever it is you want to know rather than spying on them behind their back, wouldn’t you all agree? And, if they don’t want to tell you, leave it at that.
Sure, in certain legitimate instances, such as hunting down the activities of wanted criminals or deadbeat parents, just to name a couple, it’s okay to check up on someone. But, with the ease of availability of information, many do research on people they know for pure entertainment and out of curiosity. This is more common than many realize. Not to mention there is more personal information out there on people than many realize, the reason being that most sane people do not think about spying on others, much less engage in it. But, as we all know, the world has its fair share of nuts, stalkers and lunatics.
I personally feel that people other than law enforcement officals spying on others is a violation of somebody’s space, no matter how legal. If a person wants to keep certain aspects of their history, background, current situation, etc. private because it is not part of the image they want to present to the world, we should respect that.
I think the proliferation of electronic databases (via the internet), coupled with easy access for anybody, brings out the worst in human nature. We need stricter laws to deter stalkers and hackers. Obviously, the legal system has not kept up with the new host of potential crimes that have come into existance largely during the internet age.
