I think that psychics have a completely distorted idea of what evidence is.
How do you know psychic powers are elusive?
How do you know they are rarely reliable?
What separates an ‘elusive unreliable’ power from lucky guesses?
Ianzin can convince an audience that he really has psychic powers. (He’s even written a book on it.)
The big problem is that psychics who merely achieve the same level of results as Ianzin does using cold-reading have not produced any reason to beleive in the paranormal.
Well plenty of psychics make predictions. Most of these fail (they are promptly swept under the carpet). The remainder are claimed as proof. :rolleyes:
Are you psychic?
What level of success can you achieve?
No, and I’m quite serious. My family lost something that’s worth money, I was hoping you could help me locate it. If you can then you get half of what I would get. Seems like it would be free money to me.
One of the reasons I don’t have confidence in self-described “psychics”, is that they don’t seem to believe in their abilities themselves.
I mean … both I and Czarcasm have proposed a couple of very simple tests of Lord Ashtar’s abilities. (I’ve even offered, twice now, to revise the test so that it matches up better with what Lord Ashtar says he can do. Offer still stands.) These are not, in any real sense, scientific tests. If Lord Ashtar were to successfully pick out the number that’s (still) stuck to my computer, well, he had a 1 in a 100 chance anyway, it proves nothing. Conversely, if he got it wrong, well, nobody’s saying these psychic powers are reliable, are they? - so it still proves nothing.
What does bug me, a bit, though, is that he wouldn’t even try. I mean, if I genuinely thought I had powers and abilities that transcended the currently accepted laws of physics, and somebody asked me to prove it, I’d at least have a go. So why won’t the psychics do the same? It wouldn’t prove your claimed abilities one way or the other, but it would demonstrate, at the very least, that you had some actual confidence in them …
My offer[s] still stand. Tell me the number on my computer. Or tell me something (concrete) about myself that you couldn’t know by other means. You might get it right, or you might not. But any self-described “psychic” who has the courage to make the attempt would at least gain a certain amount of respect from me.
One of the reasons I don’t have confidence in self-described “psychics”, is that they don’t seem to believe in their abilities themselves…
…I mean … both I and Czarcasm have proposed a couple of very simple tests of Lord Ashtar’s abilities. (I’ve even offered, twice now, to revise the test so that it matches up better with what Lord Ashtar says he can do…
…What does bug me, a bit, though, is that he wouldn’t even try… QUOTE]
Indeed.
I actually ran a test here on a pleasant poster who claimed to have remote viewing powers. We constructed a agreed protocol (e.g. using a Moderator as referee) and after nearly a year trying, he decided he didn’t actually have such powers.
I already backed Ianzin’s claim to be an accomplished cold-reader.
I’m an internationally rated chess player. You can find some threads where I play people, providing a running commentary.
Why are psychics so reluctant to support their claims?
Yes, you are right. The difference is completely subjective. However, to accept only what can be objectively proven, is to deny the fact that our experience with this universe is 100% subjective. For instance…have you ever had a dream so real, that you thought you weren’t dreaming? What if you weren’t able to wake up from that dream? How could you tell the Dream World apart from the Real World? Seriously, some faiths believe this is true.
No, I threw those cites in because you claimed that those terms were meaningless. Read your post again. And I don’t claim to understand how Chaos Theory works, because NOBODY knows how it works yet. This is MPSIMS, not GQ or even GD. Of course, I may be wrong…if you have some secret hidden insight into how these sciences work, please delight us with your acumen. Or, write a book.
No, you’ve got it backwards. FIRST, you find the evidence. THEN, you test the evidence, and come up with a conclusion (if any conclusion can be derived from the evidence.) That is how Scientific Method works, and I’m a little disturbed that you don’t understand that, especially since you’re arguing from the point of view of Science.
And you know this…how? Your blanket dismissal isn’t Science, hell it’s not even a valid debate. And why even make that statement when you refuse to believe in psychic powers anyway??
Uhh…what kind of questions are these? I can’t follow your logic here.
AHA!!! So THAT’S where his prejudice comes from!! I should have known. All this time, he’s pretending to be fair & balanced, when in fact HIS CAREER depends on the non-existence of psychic power. That explains the denial, the evasive answers, and the barely concealed hostility.
It all boils down to money in the end, doesn’t it?
OK, I’ll bite. What are your powers? Give me an instance of something you’ve done or known that a non-psychic couldn’t have done or known. (And don’t play games with the definition of psychic, I mean someone such as yourself who believes they possess, cultivate, and use psychic abilities to a degree that others don’t).
How about let’s start with establishing what it is that you purport to be doing? We can’t really ask for evidence without knowing what we’re trying to prove or disprove. Define “psychic” and describe your psychic abilities. Tell us which of these could be performed by interacting through this forum. If this forum doesn’t work for those kinds of things, then you can just say so.
It’s true, isn’t it? Sometimes, when I get a psychic reading, and I figure out right away (or, perhaps, months later) that it was mostly a Cold Read, I’m more impressed by the Cold Read itself, than any possible “gift” the reader might have had.
I would not call instinct & intuition “psychic”, but they are definitely on the same page. Indeed, if/when psychic power is ever established objectively, it will probably just be a derivation of very strong intuition.
It’s dangerous, though, to dismiss any theory because it does not conform to “known science”. Remember Semmelweis? The guy in the 1840’s who came up with this craaaazy theory about germs? He got thrown in a mental hospital, because of his whacky beliefs. I mean…think about it. These tiny, tiny critters that you can’t even see, make you get infected and die. Who would have known?? (And then, we invented microscopes…)
Well, most scientists are inherently prejudiced against “psychic” power, so that doesn’t surprise me. (Blind devotion to Scientific Method, and all that.)
As for Chaos Theory – and you seem the perfect person to ask – it is my understanding, that the basic tenent of Chaos Theory is this: “Very small changes in the initial conditions can create enormously different results.” Am I right about that?
I would also be very interesting in reading ianzin’s reservations about Randi’s million dollar challenge. I just re-read Ian’s excellent article “Crassing Over With John Edward” in which Ian goes over the tape of one of John’s shows and demonstrates how John could be using cold reading in a way that should keep Ian free of lawsuits.
Does Ian think there are problems with the challenge itself, or just whether it is useful in the fight against ignorance? I have found that I often refer to the challange when someone is talking about how the flavor of the month’s powers have been proven. The challenge is a shortcut way to say “put up or shut up.”
Oops, he said “dysfunctional”, not “meaningless”. My bad!
No, I don’t get it. NOBODY in this thread “gets” it. Do you get it? If so, prove it.
Nope. Not that I can’t do it. Like you said, I just don’t care.
Oh shit, I forgot to ask Lynne42: Okay, you’ve done psychic readings, and determined it all boils down to cold reading. Fair enough.
I assume, then, you know all about chakras, grounding cords, “running your energy”, aura healing, and centering yourself. Do you define these as psychic powers? Because, personally, I do not. (They are a separate power altogether…meditation, basically.)
Strike two, for two reasons. One, 'dysfunctional" and “meaningless” are not remotely the same thing. And if they were, strike two anyway because the word “dysfunctional” refers to mindsets, not terms. Read a bit more carefully. Comprende?
I understand. You forswear the least effort to back up your words with evidence. If you care so little of your credibility why should anyone else?
I was joshing. He has not revealed the number yet.
Are we reading the quote correctly? Here’s how I break it down:
1. The Mindset requires useful definitions of terms in this discussion.
2. The Mindset is dysfunctional.
I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that “The Mindset” refered to skeptics, NOT psychic supporters, because it’s the skeptics that are insisting on “useful definitions of terms” – especially, the meaning of “psychic”. Nobody but the skeptics are insisting on clearly defined terms.
Therefore, the skeptic mindset – the one that insists on useful definitions of terms – is dysfunctional in this context. Not in general, but specific to this discussion, and this discussion alone.
Maybe he did not mean to say it that way. But that’s exactly what he said. The words bear me out.
He refers to the terms “chaos theory” and “quantum effect.” You respond by saying your cite is a rebuttal of his assertion that the terms are meaningless. What has “dysfunctional mindset” to do with anything.
If you guys can stop slugging each other for a minute, I’d like to hear one of the self-professed psychics tell us what sorts of things they’ve done that non-psychics wouldn’t be able to do. Without that, we don’t really have much basis to start with.
– it is my understanding, that the basic tenent of Chaos Theory is this: “Very small changes in the initial conditions can create enormously different results.” Am I right about that?