Riiight. So earlier you were defending the OP from these questions, but now, with trivial rephrasing and asked using the word “respectfully”, they are so significant that if unanswered they make this thread pointless.
Man, it’s a wonder if you ain’t dizzy.
I don’t recall seeing any of these questions asked. I saw people asking him to “prove” his claim with requests to perform certain things. Mostly I saw snarky remarks from people who were just trying to goad him. I used the word “respectfully” because the OP said those were the kind of questions he would answer. The significance is not in the fact that * I’m * asking them, but that * some* reasonable questions have been asked. If the OP is truly open to answer genuine, non snarky questions as he says he is, then he has an opportunity. None of this stuff is new to me; I’m the one least in need of the answers to these questions. It’s really about people jumping on the opportunity for a huge pile on. Unless your going to tell me that the “sceptics” all suddenly developed open minds. Are you entitled to say whatever you want on this board? Hell yeah, but your motives and your meanings are transparent(except for your last sentence. I don’t recognize that particular dialect).
Lord Ashtar, I want you to know that with any or all of my comments in this thread, I have meant you no ill will. This is not an apology, because I meant what I said. But even though I concede that my line of questioning could be viewed as “abrasive”, I did manage to establish one thing. That you don’t stand up very well to scrutiny at all. It’s not the end of the world. It’s not a character flaw, I’m not attacking you. You failed to pass the validity test is all. I don’t hate you. Have a nice life and all that.
Ianzin, I think you are a failure as a magician. The science of the the mind, Psychic, is not lateral science. So called psychic ability should be treated scientifically, but not as the science of mathematics, and statistics. It is an anomalous object. It is a quantum effect and you and Randi are frankly too rigid, dogmatic, and ineffective as amateur scientists to really further the psychology and endeavor answers. Your approach as scientists is utterly a lie, a predestination and determination based in a flawed philosophy.
You corrupt yourselves with egocentricsm and a bigotry of mind.
This thread is formulaic and scripted. It tires me, the ignorance in bigotry.
Frankly, I’m getting more confused. Before, I just wanted to know what “psychic” meant. Now I also have to wonder what is meant by “lateral science,” “anomalous object” and, in the context used, “quantum effect.” If one of the posting gifted believers could beam the answers directly into my head, I’d be very grateful.
P.S. Lord Ashtar, I’m not convinced you’re not shining us on. No insult intended; I kind of hope you are.
What more are they than Spockian dogma in a human world, the modern inquisition, burning all at the stake for their heresy?
I rather think that such wonderings evidence a great deal too much rigidity and dogmatism and are based on a flawed philosophy. The mindset which dictates that terms used in discussion require definition to be useful is dysfunctional in this context.
Where’s **DocCathode ** when you need him? He’s good at this stuff.
Well one of the wonderful things about message boards is that you don’t have to recall, you can go back and look. Do it. You might be surprised.
Ok, this makes perfect sense to me. Lots of poorly chosen words, though. Lemme see if I can translate:
“Lateral Science” = I think he meant “Literal Science”, and we all know what that means (I hope)
“Anomalous Object” = Deviating from the normal or common order, form, or rule. [American Heritage Dictionary]
“Quantum Effect” = as I understand it, Quantum Science basically boils down to, “Anything Can Happen”. Or, “What the #$*!”
(hey! I cited something!)
So, here’s my stab in the dark:
The science of the the mind is not literal science. Psychic ability can be proven, but not by scientific method, as it deviates too far from the norm. There are too many random events affecting psychic ability from the daily fluctuations of Earth’s magnetic field, to the patterns of a half-finished game of Chinese Checkers that’s sitting over there in the corner; from the soap suds that trace patterns of X’s and Y’s across your shower door, to the number of sand grains in your lunch taco; from the number “42” as it applies to Jeff Gordon, to the fact that “Moorpark” spelled backwards spells “Kraproom”. Everything, ultimately, is connected at every level, and affects Chaos Theory, which drives the unseen forces behind Psychic Powers – the proverbial butterfly flapping its wings, is just the tip of the iceberg. [Ok, I ad libbed a bit. Sue me – KGS] Frankly, you and Randi are too rigid and dogmatic. You cannot see beyond scientific method, and therefore, no answers will please you.
(The “bigotry” comments were out of line, btw.)
There we go, now we’re gettin’ somewhere!
From the New Age Dictionary:
Quantum Effect = a term that one can use to mean anything at all since neither you nor 99% of your audience knows what it means but which allows you to borrow the cloak of respectibility that scientific sounding terms bring, which one is hypocritically happy to do despite the fact that one has no hesitation in bagging the validity of science and scientific thought whenever it doesn’t suit one.
Chaos Theory = see Quantum Effect
Well OK then. Psychic powers are clearly utterly refuted because gruntbuggly is wozzit and in 1964 Smith’s experiments showed a 100 % success rate. His assistant Miss Bugle largled 42 hugleborgs into a dovert drum without a single miss. Obviously it is therefore incontrovertible that a psychic quoglion field just cannot exist.
Obviously you will disagree, but that’s because you have a closed mind and are frankly too rigid, dogmatic, and ineffective to be able to cope.
By the way, KGS, I asked you a question at post #155 (or would answering that involve far too much literality or something?)
Sorry, I missed it.
No, that’s not it at all.
If you ever had a psychic event, you would know. Otherwise…well, there’s no way you can understand what it feels like. You may THINK you know, but truly, you don’t. It’s like explaining how the death of a pet feels, to someone who’s never owned a pet. All I can say is…you feel the difference, and know intuitively that it’s not coincidence, but a real connection.
The different between connection and coincidence can be very fine. But sometimes, the difference is vast. That’s why some people refuse to believe that such a connection exists…they are too frightened by it, and they choose to utterly ignore it. Sometimes you can tell, by how livid they get about the subject, just how strong a connection they felt. (Either that, or they’re just assholes. Hard to tell the difference.)
Oh, by the way: Chaos Theory / Quantum Effect
(If you’re gonna argue from a scientific point of view…keep up with the times!)
Spock in the box, I burning your stake!
So there’s no objective difference?
What’s the relevance of these cites? Do you seriously contend that they support your statements that “Quantum Science basically boils down to, ‘Anything Can Happen’” and that “Everything, ultimately, is connected at every level, and affects Chaos Theory…” because frankly, umm, they don’t. Not even close.
You just threw these terms into the mix to sound good and you have not displayed the first fricken’ clue that you have any understanding at all that you know what the terms mean, what Quantum Science or Chaos Theory are and, (most definitely and most relevantly) that they have any connection at all to psychics.
Incorrect. I will go wherever good evidence leads me. I don’t believe I have a ‘world view’ (so-called) that I feel needs protecting or defending. I am perfectly happy to change my ‘world view’ whenever there’s a good occasion to do so.
This line about ‘it’s too challenging to their world view’ doesn’t get anyone anywhere. First of all, it isn’t true (as I’ve pointed out above). Second of all, it can be applied to the source just as much as to the target. In other words, if I wanted to (but I don’t), I could adopt the same tone and say ‘People like KGS will never believe that psychic abilities are moonshine, it’s too challenging to their world view’. See? It’s the kind of weightless accusation that anyone can hurl around about anyone else. It’s really just a rather desperate form of name-calling.
Let’s get things in order. The first task is to see if psychic powers work. If they do, and if we can obtain good evidence that this is so, then we can start to investigate how or why. At the moment, there’s no need to concern ourselves with the ‘how or why’ because there’s no good evidence at all supporting the ‘psychic powers’ hypothesis. By the way, the supposition that some aspect of Chaos Theory pertains to how psychic faculties might function is a myth. One has nothing to do with the other.
And you are of course entitled to your opinion, my friend. I could offer evidence to the contrary, and I know there are many people who would disagree (such as those who pay me well to entertain them and to inform them). However, I am always open to informed and constructive criticism, and as such your insightful and well-reasoned comments are always welcome.
I’m sure we are all very grateful for the illumination you have been able to shed on this issue, and we thank you for your contribution. So well-written!
But would you know if you had an instinctive cold reading experience without knowing what that is? Or would you interpret it as psychic?
I have done hundreds of readings over the last five years and at times the ‘hits’ shock me. Because I am fascinated by the whole field, I initially did readings using Astrology and Tarot, as a non-believer, to explore why people believed in psychic abilites. At times I found myself unable to explain my own hits. Things just popped into my head. And, like my sitters, I only ever quoted the hits.
So I created my own divination system. That way there could be nothing in the system but what I had made up. I used cold reading methods. The more I did it, the more accurate my readings became. I rarely give anything but a very convincing reading these days. I always explain to my sitters what I am doing - in advance - and it still works. Cold reading is extraordinarily powerful.
Everytime I get one of those astounding hits, I trace it back and work out how I got to it. Duriing a reading you are talking too fast and running on instinct. I can ALWAYS track the ‘hit’ back to logic and triggers. But when it happens it is scary. If I was not so well read in cold reading, I would now be convinced of my own psychic abilities.
Instinct, intuition - fine. If you want to call that ‘psychic’ then I have no argument. But I do nothing which is not comfortably within known science. Wish I could - I would love to expand ‘known science’.
I struggle to see the relevance to what you are arguing. I did my Masters degree based on Chaos Theory and have written and published on the topic. I have 4 years of university physics, and so feel I have a reasonable hold on quantum theory - well, as much as most non-quantum-physicists, and cannot see any link to psychic abilities.
Because of my interest in the paranormal, as a skeptic, not a cynic, I have interviewed scientists in these fields about the link between quantum theory, multiple dimensions, chaos theory and paranormal claims. The scientists all - without exception - were offended by their area of science being degraded in this way.
Lord Ashtar re your OP, I would be very careful that you are not being deluded by your obviously strong intuition and levels of empathy, to believe what you are doing is psychic. Nothing you have said to date goes beyond what I experience as a cold reader. I congratulate you on being able to do so instinctively. I have had to work on it. Revel in your abilities - but be careful of labelling them as psychic.
I would love to see evidence of psychic abilities - that would be fascinating. But having watched many ‘psychics’ at work - at our Mind Body Spirit Festivals, and on TV, over decades, I have yet to see anything which goes beyond what cold readers and magicians can do.
Lynne
Clearly you (like Randi) have strong psychic ability but just don’t know it. And the reason you study the topic and deny your ability so strongly is because deep down you know you have The Power. The same way all homophobes are gay, right?
Since we seem to be unable to get a real handle on exactly what it is that makes Ashtar psychic other than that he just knows it, would you mind expanding on your reservations about the merits of the challenge?
From my post 29 in this thread:
Lord Ashtar never answered me.
(How come you missed this polite request?)