Ask the Satanist

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
61

I’m aware you don’t have any divinely inspired law, and I’m not arguing it’s required. But that doesn’t grant any particular validity to secular law.

What I was addressing were rules where religious expression is prohibited by secular law. The way I understand it, Jews are allowed to forgo things like going to temple if the police were going to throw them in jail for it. But that’s a dispensation from breaking the law, which is a little different from an active requirement to follow it.

I understand. In other ways, though, I think that might contradict the idea of the best rising to the top.

I never suggested a need to break any law. I’m asking about requirements to follow the law.

62

With regard to rising to the top and social Darwinism, what do obligation do Satanists feel the strong owe the weak? Compare and contrast that with the traditional Judeo-Christian view on charity.

63

In a nutshell, and based on my personal interpretation and experience…the simple fact is a Satanist does not owe anyone anything. J-C view seems to be that any good fortune is a windfall from above, and should be shared to give back (indirectly) to the originator. Satanist believe that when you work for something, the rewards belong to you. As Bart Simpson quipped in saying Grace, “Dear God, we bought all this food ourselves, so thanks for nothing.” Should you choose to share it, because it benefits you by making you feel good or any other reason, then by all means, share. But there is no original sin, Satanist are not born owing any god any thing, or any other person for that matter. If I were very cynical, I would say Satanist indulge in charity for the same reason J-C’s do, because it feels good to have acquired something through honest effort, and it feels good to exercise your freedom of choice in how to dispose of it. The difference is pretty much the same as in all the atheist discussion about here- Satanist don’t ever do it because they think they owe it to a god, or because they will receive an even greater divine reward.

Here’s an interesting thing to chew on. Satanist believe in the Golden Rule- do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I’d prefer that 99% of people leave me the f- alone, and so I leave them alone. I believe 99% of people should take care of their own, if those people have been responsible for themselves and the person in question chooses to take care of them. Entitlement is extremely offensive to Satanist. Their church pays taxes, and believes all churches should. The 4th Satanic Statement is: " 4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates. " Who gets to decide who deserves it? I do!!! It’s my kindness/money/time. Same way a J-C gets to decide which church or charity to donate to! But owed? No.

64

I realize I addressed the “owing” thing but not the social darwinism, etc. angle. It’s really not that diabolical or complicated. People rise to positions of leadership, power, money, or influence based, ideally!, on their merits. It’s not a new concept.

Our (American/Western) society has no issue promoting self-actualization, “Be all that you can be!”, try your best, ad infinitum. But if you remove God from the equation, it suddenly becomes evil and selfish. Every Satanist is his own god, and he does his best to maximize himself to glorify his own god, himself. It doesn’t preclude kindness, charity, or anything else. It just keeps it a personal choice rather than an obligation to buy a get-out-of-hell-free card. It feels more honest to me, to be frank.

65

Thanks Pantheon for chiming in, you’ve not said anything I disagree with, and you’ve answered mssmith537 as I would.

Marley23, I’m struggling to understand what you’re getting at. How does the rule of secular law prevent stratification? I also don’t understand why you’re referring to the idea of religious laws being in conflict with religious ones in the context of Satanism: there isn’t a conflict for us. The fact that there is for right hand religions is their own problem. Secular law has validity because it’s created by man, the only authority there is in human society - again I don’t understand how it could be any different. Are we talking at cross purposes? :confused:

66

The law can prevent some people from using their talents. When people are good at, say, killing, I don’t have a problem with that. But when the law prevents, for example, certain kinds of competition in business, or genetic engineering, it seems to be in conflict with stratification.

I understand there is no conflict for you. I’m saying I am surprised that there is no conflict, and that further, Satanism actually encourages following the law. I don’t think it’s a problem, I just find it surprising given the image of Satanism - and because, like I said, my experience is that religions usually don’t do that.

I agree.

Okay, that makes sense.

Somewhat. Maybe I’ve cleared that up a little. What I’m trying to say is this: I have always associated Satanism with a kind of very hardcore individualism, and you’ve largely confirmed that my impression was on target with your references to stratification, Objectivism and so forth. I was surprised to see that individualism combined with a very clear edict against breaking the law, since that places the rule of society above the desires of individuals.

67

I see, thank you for your clarification.

68

There are two terms I am not getting in relation to your depiction;

  1. ‘Religion’ with no gods, dogma, etc. Isn’t ‘philosophy’ a better choice of words? And if not, why not?

  2. ‘born’ satanists - you really don’t believe someone’s thinking can evolve over time to be in tune with satanism? This also assumes there are satanists out there who don’t know it and would reject the application of the term; as well as people who believe they ARE satanists because their thinking has changed, but really are not. And if they are not actual satanists because they weren’t born that way, what are they?

Also, I don’t believe anyone is born with either a religion or philosophy. How can you identify an infant as a satanist? You just realized you were a satanists a couple years ago – how do you know you were actually born that way instead of ‘grown’ that way?

69

Further on the law…From Magus Gilmore’s (CoS) Essay, Satanism: The Feared Religion, “Third, we call for the re-establishment of Lex Talionis throughout human society. The Judeo-Christian tradition which exists secularly under the guise of liberal humanism has exalted the criminal over the victim, taking responsibility away from the wrong-doer with their doctrine of forgiveness. Such thinking is a disgrace towards the ideal of justice. This must stop! Individuals must be held accountable for the consequences of their actions, and not be allowed to scapegoat society, history, or other supposed “outside” influences. It should come as no surprise that many Satanists are part of law enforcement agencies, and a large number of people throughout this and other criminal justice systems who fully agree with Satanic philosophy on this point. If the law is not being enforced, Satanists advocate the practice of seeking personal justice, but you are warned to be fully aware of the consequences of such actions in today’s corrupt society. With the present state of affairs, the outcry may yet come to welcome justice back to stay.” and "Man is by nature a social creature and makes his social contract with his fellows, thus rules of conduct are established to allow maximum freedom for individuals to interact. Disobey those rules and punishment must be swift and sure, and most probably public as well. "

IOW, Freedom is lifeblood to a Satanist. Incarceration is hell. So respect the law of the land you live in until you can move or work to change the law, if you disagree. I’m not sure it is so much an edict to obey the law as a precaution to protect your personal freedom and liberty by not falling afoul of the authorities.

Boyo Jim, a Satanist is his own god. He worships and seeks to glorify himself. Your own birthday is the highest ‘holy’ holiday of Satanism. There are many ideologies that blur the line between philosophy and religion. Satanism is a codified system of belief, with laws and sins, and things held precious and sacred (children, animals, self-empowerment, etc.).

I’m not sure where I stand on ‘born’ Satanist. My children attend a Lutheran church by their choice, and I teach them to live by the Golden Rule and to become the best they can. Were they born Satanist? I don’t know. I’m closer to feeling that some people are so indoctrinated by society and other religions that they’ll never even consider Satanism fairly, but I don’t know if that means they were born un-Satanic. Some children do seem naturally more self-sufficient, confident, assertive, etc. which are Satanic qualities, but I’ve always attributed that more to nurture.

Just my two cents. Thanks, Illuminatiprimus, for your graciousness in letting me jump in to your thread. :slight_smile: I had sooo many misconceptions about Satanism that I love the chance to fight ignorance about it, especially in a setting like the Dope.

70

OK, one more quick thought, then I’ll quit. For me, being a “born Satanist” was less literal and more of an epiphany upon reading the doctrines that ‘Hey! Other people believe the same things and live this way too!’. I don’t actually call myself a Satanist. Like everything else, I adopt the parts that ring true with me, combines those pieces-parts in to my personal ala carte philosophy/religion, and leave the rest. I will say that I’ve never found so much to take away from one source, and if I tried to draw a pie-chart of my beliefs, Satanism would be a HUGE majority portion of it…and that’s saying a lot because there are a whole lot of other pieces in that messed-up pie.

My username reflects my tendency to borrow at least a little piece of every god I meet. If there is any afterlife (can’t believe nobody has asked the Satanic take on that!), I expect to answer to a whole pantheon of gods, if any, and each of them just to be a part of me. (I’m actually an apathetic agnostic, “We don’t know and we don’t care.” which meshes perfectly with my Satanism.)

71

Wow, Illuminatiprimus, this is a great thread! I really had no idea that Satanists proper (as it were) were so different from Crowleyists. Or at least, from my local OTO.

I’m going to level with you here, and if I come to regret it, oh well.

The ones around here are a real drag. The women will never choose a single man if there’s somebody’s boyfriend they can lure away; the men appear to have taken all that penis-worship (I’m not actually joking, for those who don’t know) seriously. And literally. They appear to spend a lot of time f***ing with those they believe (or misperceive) to be weaker than they, or who have a vulnerability that can be exploited. All of them can quote, “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”; but I’ve never met one who knew that it was, “AN YE HARM NONE, Do what thou wilt, etc.”

Maybe you Satanist-types can come over here and beat them up or something?

footnotes:

  1. joking. That last sentence is a joke. No outrage or embarrassed declines.
  2. I haven’t met all of them. That is a fact. Maybe there are nice ones, who knows?
  3. Yes, I do have personal issues with them. So maybe I’m full of s**t. This is just my opinion. And finally,
  4. The asterisks are out of respect for the board and our diverse membership, not because I’m some kind of prude or Christian. I’m not. I am pagan.
72

I think I understand the Satanist take on things from reading the thread, but I’m a bit confused about the logic behind the responsibility part. Satanism seems to be all about worshipping yourself as your own god, saying no to society, empowering yourself, and living a pleasure-filled life. I don’t see how this leads to being responsible and respecting society’s rules. Is that responsibility just for convenience? Wouldn’t that responsibility just be another type of constraint? If you felt it was in your power to kill/steal/illegal-act-x then why wouldn’t you? I obviously know you wouldn’t and I can think of some reasons why not, but I just don’t get the jump in Satanist thought from ‘me me me’ to ‘society/responsibility/caring for others.’

Other questions: What is the Satanist’s take on the ultimate nature of reality, subjective or objective? Do we create our own reality or is it created by … well I guess it can’t be created by a deity. Would it be fair to call Satanist a type of existentialism? Also, what do Satanist’s think about an afterlife?

I’m personally Christian and believe in ‘losing one’s life to save it,’ so I admit that may bias my thinking. I’m not trying to witness or anything; I was just musing that it’s funny how different two belief systems can be, and yet how good people of both can turn out. Well at least you seem very nice :stuck_out_tongue:

73

Brujaja, those people you describe sound like morons to me. Much as I’d love to stir the army of the Infernal Empire up against them I think it better that they just be left to consume themselves. But your invite is cordially noted, and I’m glad you’re enjoying the thread (as am I, it’s turning out really well so far!). :slight_smile:

Autolycus, the fact is we live in society and we are part of it. Unless you wish to be a hermit or live in some kind of sheltered enclave you can’t be divorced from it. Whilst that might work for some Satanists it wouldn’t work for us all (it certainly wouldn’t work for me). Legal responsibility is partly a nod to that but more so it is part of the doctrine of responsibility to the responsible - only you are responsible for your own life and what happens to you. Satanists prosper on their own merits and expect others to do the same, those who break the law are not doing that. There is also again the point about law breaking = jail/criminal record, which no Satanist would want as it’s a limiter to what you can do and achieve. Being convicted of a crime is grounds for having membership in the COS terminated and it is a bar to being accepted in the first place.

We create our own universes, therefore it is subjective. As you say who else is there to objectify it for us? And yes, Satanism is definitely existential. Satanism says quite clearly this is the only life there is, hence the encouragement to enjoy it to the fullest and achieve all that you can.

Your closing comment reminded me of something I read in the author’s introduction to the book Lucifer Rising where the author’s publisher said he found it strange that he’d met so many batshit crazy and bigoted Christians but all the Satanists had been polite and friendly people. I wouldn’t say I agree entirely with that statement (some of the Satanists I’ve interacted with online are fairly caustic) but I definitely think that theistic religion seems to be a source of more hatred and intolerance than anything else. Personally I think the world would be better if it were built on Satanic principles, secular and pluralistic with everyone held accountable for their own actions, but then I would say that wouldn’t I? :stuck_out_tongue:

(And thanks for the compliment, it’s much appreciated. :slight_smile: )

74

There seems to be a lot of tension in these statements. Satanism recognizes no authority but one’s own and is about pursuing the things that are the best in life (to paraphrase). It would therefore seem to me that a logical Satanic stance would virtually demand that you break laws regarding victimless “crimes” of pleasure where there is minimal chance of being caught. For example, smoking weed… highly pleasurable, virtually non-addictive, responsible if handled by the responsible, criminalized only out of obediance to the deity of Puritanism. You might object that this doesn’t constitute something that makes life worth living, and that it is irresponsible in some way, but then I’d respond by asking who makes you the artibiter of pleasure, responsibilty, and acceptable risk for me.

75

Have you ever gotten bad reactions from people IRL who find out you’re a Satanist? Are there people you prefer to hide it from?

76

Read this . If after that you still don’t see how the notions work together then it’s not likely you ever will.

77

I don’t broadcast my religion to people generally. Most of friends know I’m a Satanist and I’ve had some discussion similar to that in this thread with them, there’s always an element of mythbusting to do. I’ve told a few other people when the situation merited it (i.e. it was relevant to the conversation) but generally don’t see the point in telling people given the amount of effort it takes to get them to understand what the religion is about.

People who feel the need to openly wear huge Baphomets, change their name to Ashtaroth Anton Satan the 13th and proclaim themselves the most evil people alive exist certainly, but in my opinion they’re not Satanists, their showing off their lack of intellect. Even for people who have recently come across Satanism and are still enjoying the epiphany, leading them to want to tell people about their new religion in a more intelligent way (first phase Satanists), the advice generally is not to until the ramifications have been thought through properly. Satanism doesn’t require martyrs and you don’t win any points for earning infamy and notoriety (unless that’s what you’re aiming for, of course).

78

I don’t understand what you mean. If it is rational then I can understand it. If it is not rational then it is a matter of faith and opinion (which is fine, as long as you call it what it is). There does not really seem to be any active prohibition of lawbreaking, as you say, only against getting caught (a paraphrase, again, but the sin seems only to be in losing control of your life).

79

That’s because it’s not. Gardner added that bit on for his Wiccans. Doesn’t apply to Crowleyists.

This is more closely how the issue has been explained to me by real life Satanists. This is the first time I’ve heard this sort of emphasis on being law-abiding. Being “responsible” to most people (Satanist or not) more commonly seems to boil down to being smart enough and careful enough not to get caught.

Our local brand of Satanist is also much more likely to believe in the existence and efficacy of magick than the OP, although perhaps not attribute it to particularly supernatural forces. While they are not the same thing, most of the Satanists I know are also active in or peripheral to the Thelemite community here, so perhaps that colors my impressions.

There are as many brands of Satanism as there are Satanists, I expect. Possibly more. :wink:

80

We Christians get taken to task here if we say that some other advocates of a Jesus-centered faith aren’t “real” Christians, whether it’s because they believe or behave in ways we regard as contradictory to “true” Christianity.

What is the difference between that and your stating that devil-worshippers or criminals aren’t “true Satanists” and that Satanism was started by Anton LaVey?

I agree that CoS was started by A LaV & that diabolists & criminals aren’t true “LaVeyan Satanists”, but LaVey did not originate or own the label “Satanist”.