For what it’s worth, I just noticed that this particular verse is discussing the story of Lot, also found in the Bible. I think it’s a review of the Sodom and Gomorrah story.
It’s not a basic tenet? How about that verse (The Holy Quran, 7:80-84) then?
I know about the backlash against gay marriage in America. I’m not talking about marriage. I’m talking about being against homo-sexuality.
Angua, how about this?
The Qur’an promises hell to non-Muslims 3:85, 4:56, 5:37, 5:72, 8:55, 9:28, 15:2, 21:98-100, 22:19-22, 22:56-57, 25:17-19, 25:55, 29:53-55, 31:13, 66:9, 68:10-13, 72:14- 15,
The Qur’an warns Muslims against mixing with non-Muslims 2:21, 3:28, 3:118, 5:51, 5:144, 9:7, 9:28, 58:23, 60:4.
The Qur’an calls on Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims 2:191, 2:193, 4:66, 4:84, 5:33, 8:12, 8:15-18, 8:39, 8:59-60, 8:65, 9:2-3, 9:5, 9:14, 9:29, 9:39, 9:73, 9:111, 9:123, 25:52, 37:22-23, 47:4-5, 48:29, 69:30-37.
The Qur’an promotes war against the non-Muslims by glorifying it 2:216, 9:41, 49:15, or by promising lust in paradise to the Shaheeds (martyrs) who die in such a war 3:142, 3:157-158, 9:20-21.
Don’t tell me.
There’s another way to interpret the quran, right?
Could you then explain why a liberal country, like mine, [albeit a country full of atheïsts] is pestered and terrorized by muslims who believe - and act upon - those above mentioned verses?
Could you explain why atheïsts, like me, are considered bigots, when criticizing those verses, while the real bigots are the ones that want to wage a war against non-muslims, warns against mixing with non-muslims and promises hell to non-muslims?
Do you think that’s a fair attitude, Angua?
I am the bigot in this?
I am not an Ismaili, but I have studied quite a bit about Ismailism, particularly about Nizari Qasim-Shahi Ismailism.
Unlike many Muslims, Nizari Ismailis (hereinafter “Ismailis”) do not bind themselves to what the Qur’an or hadith or shari’a says. Ismaili belief, practice, and policy derives from the Hazir Imam (AS). It is believed that the Qur’an has various levels of meaning: in order for a Muslim to understand its most relevant interpretation, he or she must consult with what the Imam has said. Ismailis are far more open and free regarding the source of their practice and beliefs. What’s also important is that Ismailis regard the Imam as a “Speaking Qur’an,” explaining and elucidating what the written Qur’an says and offering the most important and authentic interpretation of the written text. (Daudi Ismailis hold the same belief for their Imam or, in the Imam’s absence (as the case is today), the Dai al-Mutlaq.) So, if the written Qur’an says something, they turn to their Speaking Qur’an for guidance. Thus, solely appealing to the written Qur’an does nothing for Ismailis.
The Nizari Ismaili Imam, also known as the Aga Khan, is, thank God, a very modern and progressive person. On another message board, there was (and is) a heavy debate on this very topic. But because the Imam has not made any explicit statements regarding this issue, nothing definitive can be said. Ismailis quote the Qur’an in favor of tolerance of homosexuality and against homosexuality. Based on what the Imam has and has not said, no one can really come out and authoritatively say: “Homosexuality is banned in Islam.” Now, the Hazir Imam (AS) has spoken out against illicit sexual relations and adultery and the like - such may be found in His firmans. But as Angua so fittingly stated, Ismailis live and let live: for Ismailis what’s most important is one’s own spiritual progress and comprehension, not what other people do or say.
Ismailis believe in various stages of spiritual understanding and development: shariat, tariqat, haqiqat, and ma’rifat. The “shariat” level concerns itself with outward issues: orthopraxy, rituals, the obvious meanings of things; “tariqat” begins to delve into the “batin” or hidden aspects of the “zahir” or outward aspects that shariat deals with (as well as explaining the real meanings behind zahiri practices). But tariqat retains some shariati aspects - hence, Ismailis congregate for prayer three times a day, fast during certain periods, are permitted to do Hajj, etc.
Since I am not an Ismaili, I may say this: Ismailis do not normally fast during the Muslim month of Ramadhan/Ramzan. This may come as a shock to many: Ismailis are Muslims yet do not fast. However, they believe in spiritual fasting every day of the year: the attitude of piety, humility, and goodness that prevails amongst Muslims during Ramadhan, the Ismailis believe should be held every day, and so Ismailis fast every day whereas other Muslims fast only during one month. This is one example of how:
- a shariati practice has been replaced with a tariqati practice
- a batini explanation is given for the original injunction for the zahiri practice
One important note: Maula (Lord) Hazir (Present) Imam (Guide) His Highness Prince Shah Karim al-Husseini Aga Khan IV (may God bless Him and His Household) - the current Nizari Ismaili Imam - is wont to remind people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, that there is a great amount of diversity in Islam and amongst Muslims. He has a very important and correct point: Islam is not monolithic. Amongst Muslims, there is considerable difference of opinion on various important elements of the faith. One example is how to pray: there are so many guidelines on how prayer is performed: Twelver Shia, Nizari Ismaili, Daudi (Bohra) Ismaili, Hanifi, Hanbali, Maliki, Shafi’i, Ahmadi - I’m sure there are many others. It is incorrect to assume or believe that all Muslims believe or practice one way in any matter.
Nor is it possible for anyone, seeing the above, to dictate what or who a Muslim is, what a Muslim must believe, or what a Muslim must do. Everything is subject to how it is interpreted. As such, Ismailis believe in the Pillars of Islam but practice them differently due to their interpretation of the same pillars. A Hanifi Sunni interprets them one way, and behaves accordingly; an Ismaili interprets them another way, and behaves accordingly.
Ismailis are admired by many for their unity and their warm relations with each other. They take care of their own, they’re very close-knit. They’re a very model of a Muslim society. They are often highly educated, successful, humble people.
A personal note: Amongst the many Muslim groups, denominations, factions, sects, and movements, I admire the Nizari Ismailis the most. If it weren’t for my own religious idiosyncracies, I’d still be attempting to join the Ismaili tariqah. As it is, Ismailis rock!
Thank you, Angua, for this thread.
WRS - Wa ash’hadu anna Maulana Shah Karim al-Husseini al-Imam al-Hazir al-Mawjud!
There are many stupid, idiotic, bigoted Muslims out there who don’t know their religion while believing they know everything about it.
Did you know that these same Muslims have attacked people who were working for the Aga Khan’s charities in the north of Pakistan? Simply because they were working for the Aga Khan, whom some believe to be a corrupt infidel bent on destroying Islam? (La’natullah on these attackers!) I believe Ismailis will support you, gum.
Ismailis reject any call for jihad. The Aga Khan firmly rejects the use of violence by Muslims for any means whatsoever. The Aga Khan and other knowing Muslims emphasize that Islam is a religion of peace. This warmongering, blood-thirstiness, intolerance, and narrow-mindedness is foreign to the true interpretation of Islam.
Oh, Ismailis know very well just how brutal and horrid Muslims can be. They lived for many, many years under the fear of persecution, hiding their faith under the guise of Twelver Shi’ism or Shia Sufism. They hid their beliefs and practices. Even today, Ismailis in Karachi are forbidden from discussing their religion with non-Ismailis. Even today, there are people calling for the blood of Ismailis. Even today, there are people who label Ismailis as non-Muslims. Even today, Ismailis live in fear or persecution and even violence. Even today, the progressivism of this wonderful movement is condemned by narrow-minded idiots.
So, gum, you will find that Ismailis will be quite supportive of any efforts to weaken and drive away such violence-minded so-called Muslims.
Sure, the Qur’an may say this or that. So what? Do Christians agree on what the New Testament says? Do Jews agree on what the Torah says? Why should Muslims be any different? Like all Scriptures, the Qur’an is a complex document, whose interpretation is not for amateurs. Ismailis know this very well - they leave interpreting the written text and turn to their Speaking Qur’an for guidance. Good and better, I say!
When I enter a store and see Qur’anic verses, I become guarded. But the moment I see a picture of the Hazir Imam (AS), my soul brightens and I am at ease. I trust Ismailis. I like Ismailis. I admire Ismailis. And I hope the day will come when Nizari Ismailis will speak proudly, boldly, and publicly of their faith to bring in their practice other Muslims, to finally envelope more Muslims in the peace and love for peace that characterizes Ismailism.
These Ismailis are different folks. And I love them to bits.
WRS - Ya Ali! Ya Muhammad! Ya Muhammad! Ya Ali!
I know the Aga Khan is involved in a lot of charity work (especally in Tajikistan IIRC). Does this stem directly from his religion? Are other Ismailis equally generous to others?
The basic tenets of Islam are:
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Acknowledging that there is one God and Muhammad is his Prophet. (This is also the Biblical God)
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Prayer
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Charity
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Pilgrimage (to the Holy Sites)
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Fasting during Ramadan
Some sects have added pillars, but these are the basic 5 recognized by all Muslims. As you can see, hating gays isn’t really core to the religion.
If you’re not a bigot, you’re certainly unaware of how most humans operate. Fundies of all religions pull quotes out of scripture to support barbaric acts. Non-religious people selectively use ideology or law to justify heinous acts. People are assholes, this is nothing new. Religion has little to do with the very human tendency to be a bastard.
For every sura advocating war and action against non-muslims, there is one advocating compassion and recognizing the Abrahamic religions as part of the Islamic tradition (Muhammad being the “Seal of the Prophets” in a long line that includes both Abraham and Moses). If Xtians and Jews are so bloody terrible, why is it okay for Muslim men to marry their women? Obviously scripture can be interpreted in a variety of ways.
Forbes called him a venture capitalist for the developing world. Big proponent of Islamic architecture and preservation of monuments. Also builds schools, hospitals and other public works in developing countries (Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, Africa), used by all citizens regardless of religion. Funds come directly from Ismai’lis and/or investments managed through Aga Khan NGOs. A very well-organized and wealthy sect, actually. See this link for details: http://www.akdn.org
Charity is a pillar of Islam, it’s required to donate a fixed portion of one’s annual salary and/or assets to charity. Proportions and recipients vary by sect.
Angua could probably tell you more, but I have insomnia, so…
The Aga Khan and Ismailis in general are very charitable people. The Aga Khan has so many charitable organizations and initatives and involvements that I’ve lost count. Part of the reason people don’t like the Aga Khan (and these people are usually idiotic close-minded Sunni clerics) is because the Aga Khan has a lot of influence through His works. The Aga Khan, His charities, and Ismaili charities are very active throughout the world. One source of the Aga Khan’s funds are tithes (dasondh) from Ismailis - so Ismailis rightfully share the Aga Khan’s glory and success and accomplishments.
The best hospital and medical school in Pakistan is the Agha Khan University Hospital. (In Urdu, it is rendered “Agha,” whereas it is rendered officially as “Aga” in English.) My father worked as a professor there part-time the eight years we were in Pakistan (he had a full-time job elsewhere); he had the opportunity to meet the Aga Khan a number of times. Great man, the Aga Khan. Wonderful people, the Ismailis.
By the way, I’d like to mention: every congregation has four leaders. Two men and two women. Talk about equality! 
WRS - Okay, I’ll stop gushing now.
Well, here’s one guy’s take:
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/7563/page3.html
Yep. Many ways, same as with the other Abrahamic religions. If you don’t accept that is true, there probably isn’t much to debate ( though if you dig through the archives I’m sure you can find some of those passages you plucked out being debated in earlier threads ).
- Tamerlane
On a personal note, Angua (and good luck/well done with the PhD - didn’t you say you’d done your viva?), have you ever found anything in the course of your astrophysics or study of science in general which you consider conflicts with your beliefs to the extent that you were forced to accept that one or the other was simply wrong?
For Angua:
1a. How often do you usually go to jamatkhana (if you don’t mind me asking)?
1b. How often do Ismailis usually attend jamatkhana?
2a. Do you know any converts to the tariqah?
2b. What is your view/opinion on people converting to the tariqah?
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Have you ever seen or met Mawla Hazir Imam (AS)?
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Do you feel closer to other Shia Muslims, Sunni Muslims, or Muslims in Sufi tariqas?
WRS - Allahumma salle ala Muhammadin wa ala ali Muhammad!
Gum, WeRSauron has answered your question probably as well as I could – we are Muslims, but until the day comes when Hazar Imam tells us we should “hate the gays”, we won’t (and I really doubt that that day will ever come). I will add though, that we do fast during Ramadhan is as compulsory on us as any other Muslim man or woman.
WeRSauron also points out another important aspect of Ismailism, whilst we have very close, tight knit communities (when I was an undergraduate, an Ismaili couple I’d never met before, and didn’t know, looked me up, took me under their wing, and looked after me extensively), religion is an individual search. Whilst we believe that the act of praying together is important, what is equally important is what you are like as a person – you can be a “model” Ismaili, that is going to the mosque every day, giving dasond reqularly, participating in all the ceremonies, but, if outside the mosque, you are intolerant of others, if you lie and cheat in your buisiness affairs, etc., then you may as well not bother with any of it.
As regards the Aga Khan and charity. I think a lot of his charity work does stem directly from the religion – there are things like the Aga Khan Development Network which basically help to build up communities in the third world – regardless of the religion of the recipients. According to the five pillars, one is required to donate at least 2.5% as Zakat, i.e. charity. As Ismailis, we are required to give 12.5%. All of which will go towards development projects, and other charitable works. The link that Iridium’s posted is probably comprehensive in describing the work of the Aga Khan.
I doubt it very much. My friends would probably react as any other friends, i.e. smile and wink a lot, and tell me I’m in there, and so, probably would my mum. My dad and brother, however, like all dads and brothers, would probably want to castrate you! 
Not really. Drinking is tolerated, so long as its not out of hand, so the odd tipple now and then is OK, but if you’re going out seven nights a week, getting blind drunk, then that is bad, and has been said so by Hazar Imam.
We’re allowed to have relationships before marriage, and many people my age will have had at least one relationship.
Its never been a problem. Being well educated is an absolute neccessity according to Ismailism. Being a well educated woman is even more so an absolute neccessity. Ismaili boys and girls are encouraged particularly by the Aga Khan in his Farmans, to achieve academic excellence – there’s one particular Farman, where he tells the students that he doesn’t want mediocrity, he doesn’t want us to even be doing well at school, he wants us to be the best student in our class, no ifs or buts about it – Ismaili students are encouraged to try as hard as they can to be as good as they can. So, my academic success is generally met with praise from the general community. The fact that I’m a woman only adds to this – we see no difference between the intellectual capabilities of men and women, women are encouraged just as much as men, and well, many in the Ismaili community are acutely aware of the lack of women in science, and the fact that I’m in science, tends to mean that my name gets bandied about a bit. :o
We’re quite lucky in that although we’re a small sect, we’re very well spread out – there are Ismailis in many many countries of the world, particularly in the Western World. However, because of the nature of Ismailism, just because you’re isolated, doesn’t mean that you can’t be a faithful follower. Whilst going to the mosque is required, one’s own search, one’s own private, personal mediation on Allah is equally as important, and that can be carried out anywhere.
The numbers of Ismailis is fairly stable I think.
I haven’t quite finished yet – submitted a couple of papers, and am in the process of writing up that “T” word. Although I’m an astrophysicist, I haven’t found anything that has forced me to accept that one or the other is wrong. Cosmology and the Big Bang did leave me wondering for a while, but we generally reconcile the Big Bang with Islam by pointing out that Allah could well have been the “first cause” before the Big Bang, particularly as in the Koran, He is referred to as “being outside time”.
1a. I try to go at least once a week, sometimes I go more.
1b. It all depends on the person. Some people you’ll see in there every day, others will go once a month, and on special occasions.
2a. Yes.
2b. I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at by this, but I have absolutely no problems whatsoever with those who’ve converted – they made a consious decision, and I respect them for that.
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Yes I have.
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Whilst I can identify with other Muslims, the liberal-ness of Ismailism means that I really don’t feel ‘closer’ to them, if you see what I mean.
I should also, quickly, say thank you to all those, Iridium, WeRSauron, Tamerlane, who’ve come into the thread, added useful pertinent information, and been able to explain the Ismaili doctrine. Thank you.
Tamerlane – thanks for clarifying the history that I got slightly muddled – my history notes are rather confused, and I must get round to clarifying them somewhat. Thank you again.
Are there any remaining ideological connections to the Hashshashin? Does Hassan-i-Sabah’s famous maxim on truth and what is permissible still have any adherents?
Ah, the Hashshashin, I thought a thread on Ismailism may well come round to this.
In short, the “Assassins” are a western orientalist creation. Hasan bin Sabah was an Ismaili Dai, in the post-Fatimid period, when it had again become dangerous to be an Ismaili, and so Ismailism was practiced in secret. I’ll try and give a fuller answer tonight, as I’m just about to leave for the office, but I would reccomend that you read Farhad Datfary’s The Assassin Legends: Myths of the Ismailis for a full scholarly treatment of this.
Thanks much. Ever since I read The Illuminatus! Trilogy some years ago I’ve been quite interested in the truth behind the stories.
Now I just need to find out if there’re any scholarly works on a possible connection with the Knights Templar
As a follow up then, until I get a chance to go to the campus library and get the book you’ve cited… Is this article mistaken?
I’m certainly more than willing to wait till you’re done with work, but I’m quite curious about your understanding of the actual history of this group. Were they, as Wikipedia claims, a mystic group? If so, did they have ties to Sufism? (Gotta love me some of that Rumi)
OK, the Ismaili tradition is a spiritual one, where individual meditation, and the search for spiritual union with Allah is encouraged, so in that respect, then there is some element of mysticism. There is no direct link with Sufiism, although the works of Rumi to tend to be read a lot in the Ismaili community.
The article seems to be merely rehashing all the old legends that have been bandied about about the Ismailis since the medieval period. I’d say it was innacurate at best, downright wrong at worst. I’d advise you to read the book I’ve cited, it explains the development of these myths, where they came from, why they came to the fore, and what the actual history of Ismailism at Almut is.
Will do. Thanks for taking the time to clear up my ignorance.
Thanks Angua for starting this thread and others for contributing! This aroused my curiosity; how bad are things between Ismailis and other Muslims? How widespread is the disdain and violence of Ismailism? Angua, have you met any of these problems?
Also, how is the conversion rate between Muslim sects? Is it common to convert to Ismailism or from it?