If a woman is considered “as good as a man, in every way shape and form”, why is the Imamat passed only through the male line?
Because that’s how the Imamat was established by the Prophet and Hazrat Ali, and indeed the link between the Prophet and Ali is primarily through the female line, seeing as `Ali was married to the Prophet’s daughter, Fatima. It may well be that in this generation, the Imamate may pass through his daughter, but traditionally it has been passed through the male line.
However, I will re-iterate this, in Ismailism, there is no such thing as sex discrimination. Men and women are considered each other’s equals, there is no sense of “you can’t do such and such because you’re a women”. There are no positions denied to anyone because of their sex – women, just as much as men, are allowed to become community leaders (appointed by the Hazar Imam), lead the congregation in prayer, become teachers to teach the community, etc etc. Being an Ismaili woman is not an obstacle to anything.
Personally, I haven’t met any of these problems. Yes, I’ve had people tell me I’m not a true Muslim, but then, with some patient talking to, I can get them to see sense. However, as Ismailis, we are still rather secretive about our doctrines, I think this has to do with the persecution endured in the past, many people don’t actually realise that they’re talking to Ismailis when they are. In Pakistan, the Ismaili community is widespread, and has its own very prosperous housing estates, called “colonies”, and the like, but having only visited Karachi for six weeks a while back, I don’t think I’m in any position to comment. However, in Western Europe and North America, the main problem we face are the people who lump all Muslims together as backward terrorists, and its hard to change that view.
The term hashishiyya as applied to the Ismailis first comes to the fore in about 1123, in Egypt, from the then strongly anti-Nizari Ismaili Fatimid Caliphate, and eventually spread throughout the Islamic world, and became used as a term of abuse for the Ismailis. This was due to the perception in most of the Arabic world that hashish users were basically low class ‘rabble’, so to speak.
Further works, mainly written by Sunni authors, who firstly did not understand the Shia traditions, and secondly wanted an explanation for the devotion of the initiated, or *fidais*, as they were called, attributed the actual use of hashish to the Nizari Ismails, particularly as part of their ‘initiation’ rituals, and to induce the fida`is into committing politically motivated murders, or assassinations, as they became known.
In the early twelfth century, such explanations were picked up on by the western Crusaders and missionaries, who readily accepted that the use of hashish was the only explanation for the devotion of the Nizari fida`is. They mainly got their information from other, mainly Sunni, Muslims who really had very little idea regarding Nizari Ismailis, what with it having become highly dangerous once more to openly be a practising Nizari Ismaili.
Various western writers, observers and commentators, including Marco Polo, picked up on, and embellished this myth, leading to the “Old Man of the Mountain” myth, that is so readily propagated about the Ismailis (for an example, see the Wikipedia link above). In the absence of any Ismailis coming forward to explain their rituals and devotion, along with the general enmity of the general Muslim population towards Ismailis, such myths have readily propagated, and become accepted as fact.
However, whilst Hasan bin Sabah did take over the fort at Almut, and establish an Ismaili settlement there, there is no evidence that he had a garden of ‘paradise’, or that he, or any of the Imams, used hashish as a recruiting or indoctrination tool. I really suggest that if you’re interested, you read Daftary’s The Assassin Legends: Myths of the Ismailis, as he covers the development of the legend in great detail.
Just to expand slightly on Angua’s post, the correct term for a hashish user in colloquial Arabic of the time would have apparently beenhashshah. This term is never found in medieval sources, only the older word hashishiyya, which more often used to refer to ‘horse fodder’ ( originally the term referred to any dried herbal material, especially fodder - the association with cannabis was a later development, which is why the newer term of hashshah came into use ). Moreover it was never used in Persian sources ( where the Nizaris were strongest ), only in levantine, mostly Syrian works. So it does appear to have been more just a local epithet.
The specific use of hashish was a speculation by the 19th century French historian Silvestre de Sacy, who extrapolated from the word and medieval accounts of drugged Nizaris a la Marco Polo and others. These stories more usually revolved around the giving of potions to new initiates. But the local narrators for these stories were unreliable in the extreme ( Marco Polo not least of all ) and no Isma’ili source has ever come to light to confirm any of this. If it ever was a tradition ( and it almost certainly was not ), it certainly didn’t survive very long as modern Nizaris practice nothing similar far as I know. It is much more likely the word gave rise to the legend, not the other way around.
Also the “Old Man of the Mountain” was again originally a strictly Syrian thing that was later conflated with the Nizari leadership in Alamut.
- Tamerlane
I read somewhere (don’t remember where) that Muslims don’t believe in using artificial birth control. Do Ismailis believe in using birth control?
Actually, to my knowledge, must Sunni authorities at least allow it as long as it doesn’t involve abortifacients like the pill or the IUD. There are in fact hadiths where it is established as permissible to use coitus interruptus as a form of birth control. Condoms et al. are seen as just an advanced form of that.
No clue about the Shi’ites, though.
[celestina steps up to the mike and says: testing, testing. The mike lets forth a loud burst of static.]
Well, I just wanted to make sure it’s on since folks seem to like to ignore my questions around here.
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Okay, I don’t mean no disrespect or nothing because your religion sounds right nice and all, but I was wondering about the Hazar Imam. You got any checks and balances built in your system of Imamat? I mean, what happens if, heaven forbid, your Hazar Imam like goes crazy or starts telling y’all to do things that are not good, or gets in an accident without declaring his successor? Since y’all say he’s your spiritual leader and responsible for coming up with progressive interpretations of the Qu’ran and stuff, then aren’t y’all at the mercy of him, and wouldn’t y’all be in trouble if he gets power hungry and greedy?
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What’s y’all’s position on divorce? How do y’all go about divorcin’ if it comes to that?
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Catholics have confession, where they go to priests, do y’all have that? If not, then how do y’all atone for any sins/indiscretions you have since humans ain’t perfect? How do y’all deal with one of your own who’s really messed up and committed one of your biggest sins? Do y’all forgive him/her, or excommunicate him/her, or something else?
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What’s y’all’s position on abortion?
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Do y’all go out and try to convert non-Muslims over to your faith? I mean I’ve heard Muslims say that they ain’t supposed to be actively converting folks, but a friend of mine what used to work over in Saudi Arabia told me lots of folks over there were trying to convert him to Islam.
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You say your religion focuses on the individual’s search for enlightenment and such like, but what happens if your search leads you to a different conclusion than the one the Hazar Imam has? Do you submit to the Hazar Imam’s, or just be quiet about what you think, or is there some fora where you can debate with the community and/or the Hazar Imam and come to a democratic consensus?
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What’s y’all concept of the afterlife, or do you have one? If you do have an afterlife, is it just for your sect, or do y’all think y’all will connect up with other religions’ heavens. Will your family pets–for those who have beloved pets go to the afterlife with y’all? Do y’all go to heaven, or do y’all go through a reincarnation process until you reach Nirvana?
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What separates y’all from the Sufis?
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What got you into astrophysics, and do you know anything about fixin’ busted spaceships?
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Tamerlane, are you sure you ain’t some kind of history or religious studies professor? I declare everytime I turn around you educatin’ the experts Dopers. Come on. 'Fess up, hon.
I would just like to add:
y’all. 
Do you have a picture? (Well, I have to be curious about the woman so beautiful she causes people’s eyes to explode.)
So what if the Imam didn’t produce any offspring? Does that ever happen? I’m assuming it wouldn’t be a big deal if it did. What if the Imam dies suddenly, without indicating a successor?
What about the Hadiths? Sadly, I’m not too well-educated on even the basics of Islam, as is probably apparent right now - so, Angua and fellow Muslims, please tell me about your respective groups’ beliefs in this regard. How many sources are there? Do the Nizari Ismaili consider any of them authoritative, or are they not needed as the Hazar Imam can provide such guidance as to matters of how to live and conduct oneself? What about other Muslim groups - which ones to Sunnis and the other flavors of Shi`a accept?
I can’t answer all of this, but I believe that the concept of nass - designating one’s successor - is so important that no Imam would ignore this. Unless something happened (Heaven forbid!) before the Imam can designate someone. I suppose if something like that happened, leaders close to the Imam would enthrone whom they believe the Imam would have designated. Disputes arise when an Imam’s nass is unclear, and there have been various such disputes. Perhaps the most famous is what gave the Ismailis their name: Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq died; he originally designated his son Ismail to become the Imam but, depending on one’s sources, Ismail died, had his designation withdrawn, or faked his death for safety. In any case, the majority of people believed that another son of Imam Ja’far, Musa al-Kazim, should become the Imam. People who supported Ismail recognized Ismail’s son, Muhammad ibn Ismail, as the Imam, counting Ismail as an Imam in their list of Imams (so, it would go Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq, Imam Ismail, Imam Muhammad ibn Ismail, etc.). The majority followed Musa al-Kazim, creating what are now known as the Twelver or Ithna Ashari Shias (their line goes Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq, Imam Musa al-Kazim, etc.).
The ahadith (plural; singular, hadith) are part of sunnah or tradition. Ahadith are the sayings of Muhammad and others close to him. Sunni fiqh depends on ahadith to a large degree. Because Shias accept authoritative figures after Muhammad (viz., the Imams), their utterances are also classified as ahadith by Shia jurists. Of course, Sunnis do not accept Shia Imams’ utterances as part of ahadith; in a similar vein Shias do not accept the utterances of the first three Sunni caliphs (Abu Bakr, Umar, and Uthman) as part of ahadith.
It’s always fun to watch Shias and Sunnis having hadith-fights, each flinging ahadith at the other to support their claims, no end in sight. It’s interesting that nearly any party can find a hadith to justify its claims.
A statement by the Hazir Imam is classified according to audience, occasion, and purpose. The Hazir Imam’s statements are higher than sunnah.
WRS
Tell me about the Aga Khan walking on the ladies’ hair ceremony.
There are no Farmans disallowing birth control, and we are advised to not have unwanted children, or children that you cannot support, so birth control is perfectly acceptable, particularly since there are no stipulations against sex for pleasure.
I guess so, but there is a leadership structure in place, and I daresay that if the Imam came out with some proclamations that were really “out there”, and not at all keeping with his character, then questions would be asked, for clarification.
Divorce is permissible where it is permissible under the laws of the country in which you live. First and foremost, we have to abide by the laws of the country where we live, which even goes as far as getting a civil marriage first, before being allowed to sign the Ismaili wedding contract. So, where you can get a divorce in your home country, you can divorce, and a divorcee is treated no differently to a non-divorcee.
We have a system of repentance. We go in front of our community leaders, who are appointed by the Imam, and whom, we believe, when in the mosque have the authority of the Imam (i.e. they are the Imam’s representative), and recite a formula of repentance – literally “I repent, I repent. Oh Lord, I am a sinful person, if the Jamat (Ismaili community) forgives me, my Lord, you will forgive me.” Our sins are then absolved. We do not have a system of confession, the idea being that your sins are between you and Allah, and that will be dealt with between you and Allah on Judgement Day.
I’m not sure. I think its left down to your own moral and ethical judgement. Its certainly not the usual thing, and is probably only really acceptable in very extreme circumstances, such as rape. Its certainly not permissible in Sunni Islam.
No. Our previous Imam, Sultan Mohammad Shah, explicitly stated that he did not want anyone to go out and evangelise. Rather, he wanted the followers that he had already to be able to learn in depth about their faith so that they understood what and why they do what they do. Also, we are now told that in this day and age, doing more or less what I’m doing now – educating people about Islam and Ismailism, so that you don’t have the wrong idea about us is vital, therefore, resources are spent on educating Ismailis on their own faith, rather than on evangelism.
I don’t know. The search for enlightenment becomes very very personal, and rather secretive, basically, if you’ve achieved such a level, you don’t shout about it – it becomes between you, the Imam and Allah. I would suppose there is, but I don’t know about it.
We believe in the concept of afterlife, of paradise. We also believe that said afterlife is the same for all Abrahmic religions, since they are essentially, the same religion.
The Sufis are pure spiritualists, they reject the material world in favour of the spiritual world. In Ismailism, we are taught that the responsibilities of the material and the spiritual world are placed on you from the day you’re born, and to neglect one or the other would be A Very Bad Thing. Also, the Sufis do not have the concept of the hereditary Hazar Imam.
The thirst for knowledge really. I want to know what’s out there, why it works, how it works, and I get to make pretty pictures for a living – can’t be bad. As for busted spaceships, kick ‘em in the knackers till they behave?
Neither scenario has ever happened, as WeRSauron says, the question of succession is too big a thing for the Imam not to think about. As for dying without offspring, its likely that a named successor would be one of the Imam’s brothers or other close male relatives.
That’s a new one on me I’m afraid, you’ll have to expand.
I guess I was wondering what would happen if the Hazar Imam were to die suddenly early in his service. Is his successor named very early? If it’s generally passed to a son, wouldn’t that mean he might potentially have to pick a successor when the child is very young?
I would think so. But never actually seen the private papers of any of the Imams, I can’t say.
Yes, that’s entirely likely, and has happened on many an occasion. For instance, the previous Imam, the current Imam’s grandfather, became Imam at the age of 8.
I just remembered reading somewhere that there’s a ceremony to greet the Aga Khan, the women lie in a row with their long hair stretched out behind their heads across the ground, and he walks over it. Hopefully in bare feet! Sorry if I got the story wrong. Or is this one of the stories made up by Sunnis with no basis in reality? If true, it would be taking place in Pakistan or India somwhere, where many women grow their hair really long.
I’ve never actually heard of it happening anywhere. I get the feeling that if may be a made up story, in the vein of “those crazy Ismailis” thing.
I’m so sorry, Angua! I tried using Google to find anything about it, and there was just one brief, angry message board comment from an Isma‘ili complaining that Twelvers made this up to mock them. I had vaguely remembered hearing this years ago and should have questioned the veracity of it. Thanks for helping me to get this disinformation out of my mind!
Interesting and informative thread Angua. I’ve only ever known one Muslim Atheist – that is brought up Muslim (Sunni?) turned Atheist. He was a Marxist and pretty hostile to (what he saw as) the dogma of Islam. Great guy but I don’t think I should generalise from his example. As a raised C of E Atheist myself I’m pretty much aware of the various flavours of Atheism/Agosticism for people who are former Christians, or just brought up in a (nominally) Christian country. Do you know how this works for those who started out as Muslim? How are Atheists, whether former Muslims or not regarded?
I’m not entirely sure how it works. I know some Muslim athiests, but I don’t know what the community’s reaction, as a whole is to them.
{{{Angua}}}, thank you for your responses. Sorry I’m just now getting back to this thread, but I’ve been swamped this week. So [giggle] with all that education, you’re telling me that the best way to fix my busted spaceship is to kick it in the knackers. Well, why didn’t I think of that? I’ll give it a try.
I’m glad to know that y’all have a system of checks and balances in your Imamat. It really sounds like your sect has taken the notion of ijtihad to heart. I am happy to know that. I’ve got another question for you.
What do y’all do for Muslims from other sects–Sunni, neo-Salafist–who may want to adopt the beliefs and practices that you do? Are y’all suspicious? Do you put them through a series of tests to rule out terrorist infiltrators and/or just ingenous folks? Or, do you just accept them and leave it in Allah’s hands? If you feel like this might reveal too much about your religion, then I won’t be hurt if you don’t respond.
Thanks again, hon, and if I ever get over in your neck of the woods I’ll buy you a drink.