Ask the Web Designer/Web Host

I don’t know how the job market is. If you start your own business you can go in any direction you want. If you’re going to lose potential clients because they insist on staying with their Windows host and keeping their site in ASP or ASP.NET you might want to at least be familiar enough with it to work with it. I don’t think it would be difficult to find a firm that doesn’t use any Microsoft-specific products, though.

But it never hurts to be well-rounded.

That’s all well and good but the first thing I thought when I read “worked in the IT field and gotten Comp Sci degrees” I thought “what the heck does the IT field and Comp Sci have to do with Web sites?”

My best friend graduated top in his class with a Comp Sci degree. He attended the PHP workshop with me. He had no idea how databases could relate to PHP code or Web sites. He set up his own site, and runs it from his own computer. Nifty trick but his site doesn’t do anything (just a couple lines of HTML). He works at a software company now that is branching out in to Web sites. So far all the sites I’ve seen of theirs look like crap because they’re a firm of programmers with Comp Sci degrees and IT experience.

Don’t get me wrong though - the guys who are really running Amazon and eBay and Vonage are the guys with the Comp Sci degrees. But if those sites/services didn’t also LOOK good and have good content, no one would come. Good code with fancy servers is one facet of good Web design. If you’re going to strike out on your own you need to have all sorts of other skills and know how to use them in a practical sense. And if you’re going to join a firm you have to be able to fit in to the entire Web design puzzle as a teammate that doesn’t just turn in one little part and go on his way.

If classes teach you how to set up a server, set up a DB, have good DB structure and print “hello world” and then stop - that’s not very useful. If they teach you how to get around Photoshop and plug graphics into Dreamweaver but there’s no higher forms of coding - also not very useful. If you know all the basics but don’t know how to apply them to what your clients want because you only know how to do things one way - not useful either.

I think my thinking on “web design classes” stems from the idea that there is rarely one right way to do anything with Web design so it is very hard to teach. Hard to make sure everyone is well-rounded. Also hard to find someone who’s been actively doing it long enough to teach the classes. If you’re a kickass Web designer that knows everything well enough to teach it, you’re busy being a kickass Web designer and don’t have time to teach class.

Anyway the point is moot - kushiel you’ve already said that you have been doing work on your own and I assume you continue to do work outside of school. I think that is the main key to becoming a good Web designer - you just have to do it, all the time, and do new things all the time. Foundations of understanding are a fine thing to learn at school. But practical use and implementation come only from using and implementing. The nice thing about this field is that most of the tools you need are free and you’re also free to do it, do it again, and re-do it until it works right.

First of all, thanks for this thread ZipperJJ!

I have just finished a course in Internet Design and Technology at UNLV and am certainly a novice, but I have already agreed to design a few websites for friends to get more experience and it is interesting to read about your experiences. Upon completion of the design and technology courses, we were required to take an intensive, six week course in SEO that was very enlightening. And yes, you are correct - there are lots of people out there claiming to know SEO, but haven’t got a clue on design, nor are they even up-to-date with some of the newer developments by Google and MSN and Yahoo. But I digress.

I have one question that I hope is not too personal - and if it is, feel free to ignore this question and carry on.

How much do you charge for a website?

I know that can vary, so let’s just assume I want a standard, 5 page website with no bells and whistles (special video/Flash features), and just want a basic form on the contact page - what would you charge for that?

And as long as I am asking, do you charge a flat fee to get started? And if you are the webmaster for that site, what do you charge per month?

Again, if this falls under the category of none-of-your-damned-business, confidential company policy, feel free to pretend you didn’t read this question!

Not personal at all - we’re a business afterall. So me telling you how much we charge isn’t going to tell you about my personal financial status :slight_smile:

We generally don’t do sites as you describe - by page. For example we just did a site for about $3k that had approximately 12 scripts in it’s root. But if you look at the site you wouldn’t think “gee this site only has 12 pages” (because of dynamic data).

Anyway, for something that did not involve a database in any way we’d charge $65/hour. Our scope would include every last detail from “you will get 3 mock ups” to outlining every page/section and giving the client a list of demands (“we need all of the literature and images you plan to use”).

Once we have it scoped we can figure out how much time it would take us to do it. I don’t know what “special video/Flash features” constitutes so let’s just say it’s one video and it’s converted to Flash. I’d make one header and one footer file and include them on every page (for my own ease and for ease in updating). The nav would be included in the header. I’d make all the graphics and set all of the CSS and then start creating pages - each of which starts with the header include and ends with the footer include.

So if it’s just all static HTML I dunno I guess maybe 8 man hours? 5 or 6 of those hours would be design mockups and then subsequent graphic creation, CSS tweaking and the video processing.

One caveat to that - I charge $65/hour for such things because I can do $65 hours worth of work in that hour. If you are new and still have to look things up, are uncomfortable yet with Photoshop, have to code and re-code to get your HTML working as you want - then you might want to charge less. So if it takes you 16 hours to do what it takes me 8 hours to do perhaps just charge $35/hour.

There’s no problem with being new - everyone is new at some point. And the end results can easily be the same as someone who charges 10x what you do. But if it takes you a long time to do things, charge less money per hour and allot for more hours. As you get more proficient and find that you’re feeling ripped off by your hourly prices, bump it up.

Also one very important piece of advice - meet the client, go home and make a very complete scope, have the client sign the scope and do not deviate from the scope. If they reject the scope, re-work it to include their new desires and have them sign it. Do it again and again until the scope is tight and the price matches it. If they want something else after the scope has been signed, write a new SECOND scope (don’t re-do the original, signed one) and have them sign that.

I don’t care if you are a an established company or a guy working out of his mom’s basement charging a friend $10/hour for his Women Of Star Wars site. GET IT IN WRITING AND DO NOT DEVIATE. Scope creep will kill you and waste your time.

No flat fee to get started, here. We don’t charge until the scope has been signed. Sometimes we spend a lot of hours on the phone and writing scopes and we lose the job and that sucks but no flat fee.

With new clients we do charge them a deposit - 15% of the scoped fee - to get started, then send them a Net 30 invoice for the remainder once the project is done.

As for being a Webmaster…we don’t do that here. Our “thing” is that we make dynamic sites that can be controlled via an admin (forms that let you manipulate the data). We do lay it out for the client and tell them that adding an admin and making a db-driven site would be more expensive up front ($90/hr) but it saves them from having to pay us to ever update the site again. We’ll usually throw in some training for secretaries and the like who are assigned to keep the site updated.

We do fix mistakes for free, of course. And we fix them as soon as they’re reported. Changes, updates, new graphics etc either get treated as a new scope (come to us with a list of things you want us to change) or one-offs get charged as $65/hr with a 1 hour minimum. Those changes also usually end up in the “to do” pile and we make them as we have time.

We lay these policies out at the beginning of our relationship with a client so they’re not all surprised when they want changes and it costs money. We also like to use it to let them know that we’re not their bitches and we’ve got other clients so make sure you know what you want before you come to us (even if you need us to help you figure out what you want - at least have a topic). Sounds harsh but you’d be surprised at how crazy some people can be when they think the world revolves around them.

And hosting…our hosting runs from $14.95/mo to $34.95/mo and there’s all sorts of add-ons and whatnots. But that’s because we run our own servers and can control these things very closely.

Or, charge $65 an hour (or whatever), but only bill for half the time. That’s the way I deal with “learning on the job.”

And ditto on getting a project plan in writing that you and the client have agreed to.

I should say that the motto of my school is ‘lifelong learning’ and my instructors reflect that. They have that passion to go out and keep on learning new things on their own time and for their students. One of my instructors actually worked for years as a band teacher before quitting that and pursuing a Comp Sci degree while teaching. Between both my instructors I get all the design and graphics lessons AND really good and competent programming teachers.

I was trying to point out that rather than get a bad program that teaches mediocre web design practices and that’s all (no background information on how the web and servers work and such), I get great web design courses AND the experience of learning how to set up my own LAMP server, build a blogging system in PHP and explore things like Ruby on Rails for an independent project. I get it all, and I don’t like when people look down on me and think I’m a cheap hack because I went to school for web design. I was already proficient in HTML, CSS and languages like Visual Basic and Java before I went there. It would have been only a matter of time before I branched out into all these other things, but going to school and learning it right from good instructors helped me out a lot.

kushiel, rock on with your bad self :slight_smile:

I don’t look down on ANYONE who knows their stuff, no matter if they went to Web design school or pig farming school. You can go to Web design school and come out knowing nothing about Web design or you can come out knowing it all. Your portfolio will show that. Don’t let some big-headed “web pro” (like me) make you think that Web design school is shite.

If someone comes to me and wants to work with us and they have a major in Web design or no major at all I am not going to look at that - just what they can do. If what they can do blows me away, and they got there because they majored in Web design then awesome.