[QUOTE=DangleYourModifier]
It’s not bad but not 100%. The soldiers in the movie were South African and if you listen to their accent you’ll get the idea.
[/QUOTE]
DiCaprio’s character wasn’t South African but Zimbabwean, but maybe the accents aren’t all that different?
I’m asking because I found his speech inexplicably pretty. I could have kept listening to it for two more hours.
Is Madam & Eve required reading in school? Shouldn’t it be?
Argent Towers writes:
> Surely the vast majority of the crime in South Africa, as it is in the United States,
> is black-on-black. Right?
It’s hard to be sure what you’re saying here, but it’s not true that the majority of crime in the U.S. is black-on-black. Most crime in the U.S. is white-on-white or black-on-black. Not much is black-on-white or white-on-black. There is more white-on-white crime than black-on-black crime, although the ratio of black-on-black crime to white-on-white crime is higher than the ratio of blacks to whites.
[QUOTE=Argent Towers]
Surely the vast majority of the crime in South Africa, as it is in the United States, is black-on-black. Right?
[/QUOTE]
The big difference there is that the vast majority of the population in South Africa is black. I’m reasonably sure that the vast majority of the crime in Spain is white-on-white 
<deleted for being unnecessary>
Dangle, this is a fascinating thread. Thank you for starting it.
What advice would you give to a tourist visiting South Africa? What should be seen/done?
[QUOTE=Nava]
The big difference there is that the vast majority of the population in South Africa is black. I’m reasonably sure that the vast majority of the crime in Spain is white-on-white
[/QUOTE]
Yes you are quite right. We have 2 types of violence. Violence associated with crime and political or cultural violence. The one is driven by need and is often opportunistic, so whoever has a flashy car or jewellery is the target, whether you’re white or black is irrelevant. The other is driven by differences in culture and political outlook and is most often black on black and not black on white as many people might think. The reason is simple, although there is a divide between white and black we also have numerous ethnic groups that don’t get along and they are moire likely to be living close together in poorer areas.
[QUOTE=Aithele]
What advice would you give to a tourist visiting South Africa? What should be seen/done?
[/QUOTE]
The advice is the same as for any traveller in strange places.
Safety:
There are some areas where the locals won’t even walk - don’t go there. Don’t flash around cash or jewellery, it makes you a target. Don’t look like an obvious tourist if you can - I think there are few places in the world where looking like a tourist won’t get you ripped of somehow, whether it is taxis or wrong direction for the hell of it.
Weather:
Our climate is warm to hot most of the year so dress appropriately. Although our winters are never as cold as Europe, for example, we’re not really geared up for cold weather and we do not have central heating in most places so you will need warm clothes in winter.
The people are friendly and helpful, English is spoken everywhere and you will find any of the food or conveniences you are used to in any big city and most large towns.
The Dollar and the Pound is very strong compared to the Rand and you will find many things quite cheap.
Where to go:
A lot of overseas visitors seem to flock to Sun City which is a large resort near Johannesburg and Pretoria. I personally think it is a bit of a waste to spend a good holiday at a casino resort but it certainly has an African theme and I can see why some people like it.
Cape Town is a must, just because it is a beautiful city full of cafes and restaurants, nice beaches and plenty to do and see. You could visit the Castle of Good Hope , climb Table Mountain (or take the cable car up), go to the Waterfront or visit Clifton Beach . You can take day trips out of Cape Town to many of our Wine Routes such as Stellenbosch and Franschhoek. For the adventurous there is shark diving, bungee jumping, paragliding and much more. For the sporty there is cycling (we have the 2 largest mass cycle events in the world, the Cape Argus and the 94.7 - we also have two of the great marathons in the world, the Comrades and the Two Oceans ), mountain climbing and visiting caves.
For a real African experience you should definitely try some of our many Nature Reserves. The Kruger Park is world famous and there is a selection of accommodation, from very affordable to top end 5 star. We also have numerous smaller game farms and nature reserves for all levels of traveller and they will take you on game drives and serve authentic African cuisine.
We are a young country so our history is limited to the last few hundred years so if you’re looking for castles and renaissance art this is not the place. However Africa is the Cradle of Humankind and we have plenty of bushmen paintings as well.
The best thing about the country to me is that because we have sunshine most of the year you can be outside taking walks, participating in adventure sports or just sitting in an open restaurant, whatever you like.
That is a very brief summary and there is plenty more to see all over the country. It obviously depends on what you like and what your interests are.
Autolycus, just because you missed my reply first time around, here is another recipe for one of our favourite dessert.
[QUOTE=grimpixie]
*In answer to Retvim’s question, “nigger” is never used as an insult, to me (in my youth) it was a quaint, archaic word, mainly used to describe aniseed sweets (nigger balls). Kaffir, munt, darkie, non-reflective - these are the slurs of choice…
[/QUOTE]
My coworker’s stories indicated this as well. he said once when he was a child he referred to the housekeeper as a kaffir, and his Dad got really angry, saying something like “You will not call the niggers ‘kaffirs’ in this house young man!”
Is “nigger” still as inoffensive there today as it appears to have been in the past?
[QUOTE=Revtim]
Is “nigger” still as inoffensive there today as it appears to have been in the past?
[/QUOTE]
It’s a non-word as far as I am concerned - I’m aware that it has racist, emotional baggage in the US particularly, but since it never gets used here, it has no power.
Dangle - from your effusive recomendations, I assume you’re also in Cape Town. Where did you grow up and how did you come to move to the Mother City?
Grim
I don’t know if this question is one that can be answered by South Africans, but I’ll give it a try - here in Canada we are inundated with requests for donations for starving African children. If I donate money, does it actually help any starving African children? Is there something that (relatively) rich Canadians can do that will actually be effective for improving living conditions for poor Africans? Should we? Is there a downside to Canadian charity money going to Africa?
I’ve read this thread quickly. What sub-Saharan African countries have you been to and could you comment on any that you have been to?
[QUOTE=dalej42]
I’ve read this thread quickly. What sub-Saharan African countries have you been to and could you comment on any that you have been to?
[/QUOTE]
I’ve been to Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Swaziland, Mozambique, Malawi and Zambia. The vast majority of these were either for a brief holiday or just passing through en route to somewhere else, so I’m not sure that I’m qualified to comment on them as a country as a whole…
[QUOTE=featherlou]
I don’t know if this question is one that can be answered by South Africans, but I’ll give it a try - here in Canada we are inundated with requests for donations for starving African children. If I donate money, does it actually help any starving African children? Is there something that (relatively) rich Canadians can do that will actually be effective for improving living conditions for poor Africans? Should we? Is there a downside to Canadian charity money going to Africa?
[/QUOTE]
As with all charity, it would be a good idea to investigate the organisation before donating. A good charity will be able and willing to provide information about how your donation gets used/where it ends up. We sponser a child through Compassion and get regular updates (from the child’s guardians) as to what has been recieved and how it was spent, as well as letters & pictures from the child themself. I suppose these could be bald-faced lies, but that’s a risk you take…
Having said that, I think that the best way that rich countries can help poorer countries (including, possibly especially, African countries) is to invest in business here - thus providing employment, increasing skills and boosting local economies. By making an investment, you will remain concerned with how the investment is panning out - when you donate money, it is easy to forget about it.
Grim
[QUOTE=grimpixie]
I<snip>
Having said that, I think that the best way that rich countries can help poorer countries (including, possibly especially, African countries) is to invest in business here - thus providing employment, increasing skills and boosting local economies. By making an investment, you will remain concerned with how the investment is panning out - when you donate money, it is easy to forget about it.
Grim
[/QUOTE]
Interesting idea. I was thinking more about micro-loans/micro-credit, but doing a little more research into it, it helps the poorest people, but doesn’t really help the country’s economy as a whole (as discussed in this article). Your idea of investing in a business is more likely to help both the poor people and the country.
Sorry about the delay in replying. We had a public holiday here and I was nowhere near a computer for the whole weekend. (I actually thought the thread was dying down and was surprised to see new posts)
[QUOTE=grimpixie]
Dangle - from your effusive recomendations, I assume you’re also in Cape Town. Where did you grow up and how did you come to move to the Mother City?
[/QUOTE]
Actually I live in Centurion. I was born in Louis Trichardt and lived on a farm for a few years but grew up mostly in Pretoria. I know Cape Town well as I have a branch of my business there and I’m there almost every month. I’ve also spent a lot of time there on holiday.
[QUOTE=featherlou]
I don’t know if this question is one that can be answered by South Africans, but I’ll give it a try - here in Canada we are inundated with requests for donations for starving African children. If I donate money, does it actually help any starving African children? Is there something that (relatively) rich Canadians can do that will actually be effective for improving living conditions for poor Africans? Should we? Is there a downside to Canadian charity money going to Africa?
[/QUOTE]
I agree with grimpixie’s response and would like to add that I personally believe charity, per se, is a bad thing. It encourages dependence and also creates a culture of entitlement. If Africa can get out of the mindset that colonialism is the root of all evil and stop believing it is the rest of the world’s duty to save Africa, then maybe they will start working for a future for themselves. The saying of "teach a man to fish …etc. " is certainly a cliché, but also true. Compare China, who has received little aid over the decades from richer countries, to Africa, who has received billions, today - China is by far better off for having overcome their own problems of poverty. The other obvious problem with aid to African countries is that it seldom reaches where it is meant to go.
That being said their are many charities that do work on the ground and who, as **grimpixie **says, should be able to prove the use of the money. I also agree that investing in business is the way to go. Consider that by investing in a business and requiring a return on your investment is more likely to result in a positive result all-round compared to giving to charity where no ROI is required - the money is simply used up and needs to be replaced by MORE charity.
[QUOTE=dalej42]
I’ve read this thread quickly. What sub-Saharan African countries have you been to and could you comment on any that you have been to?
[/QUOTE]
I have been to Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Lesotho, Swaziland, Mozambique, Malawi and Zambia. I have been there on holiday and have done business there for a few years so I know most of them quite well. I’m not sure what comments you want - from a socio-economic view or from a tourist view. I’ll guess tourist for now and give some quick comments.
Namibia Lots of desert and mostly dry with the most amazing dunes and little towns dotted all over. you can drive for hours without seeing any towns or any civilization. Go there if you want to be alone, stare at dunes and stars, take very long drives and generally think about life, the universe and everything. Don’t go there if yo want a beach holiday or lush vegetation. Best things - stargazing and hunting, worst - the distances and heat.
Botswana Absolutely fantastic country for a tourist. In fact that is their main business. Great accommodation and food, unbelievable game drives and friendly people. The Okavango is one of the truly great places to visit and Chobe is one of the best nature reserves that I have been to. Good things - everything, bad things - not much (Yes, I like Botswana, why?)
Lesotho & Swaziland I’ve put these two together as they are very small and I have not spent that much time in them, although two of my best holidays have been in these 2 countries. I can say that both are mountainous, albeit with different vegetation. I went off road bike riding in Lesotho over the Sani pass and it was an awesome experience. Lesotho is known as the “roof of Africa” for a good reason. My Swaziland holiday was completely different but just as amazing - we went white water rafting in the Great Usuthu and camped next to the river - unbelievable.
Mozambique Also quite underdeveloped so it has mostly been a destination for campers who go there to fish and scuba dive. It is however growing as a tourist destination and there are more and more hotels being built that can accommodate any type of traveller. Amazing beaches, great diving and deep sea fishing. The rest of the country is still poor and suffering the ravishes of the war. Stick to the shoreline. However, avoid Maputo as it has become a hellhole and you are likely to get robbed there - it isn’t very pretty and there is not much left of the heyday when it was Lorenzo Marques.
Malawi My best memory of Malawi is the friendly people. Everyone is helpful and they speak English very well. I have not been back for many years so I’m not sure how much it has changed. It is not a great place for the casual tourist as the infrastructure is quite underdeveloped and if you’re looking for a luxury holiday this is not the place. However it is a very popular destination for backpackers and I met people from all over the world there. If you feel like roughing it it is quite safe to travel through the country and many back packers end up in Monkey Bay on Lake Malawi where they camp on the beach and mostly get stoned.
Zambia & Zimbabwe I’ve lumped these two together because basically Zambia has taken over form Zim in the tourist stakes. The biggest attraction in both countries is Victoria Falls and previously the Zim town of Vic Falls was the place to be. From camping to 5 star hotels it had it all. you could go rafting, bungee jumping, game viewing and hiking. When I was there for the first time in 1990 it was packed and all the hotels were full so we slept in the car. I was there recently and the place is a ghost town. All the facilities are still there but it was completely weird sitting in a luxury casino, drinking a beer and being the only people in the place. It is like a science fiction movie with everyone disappearing overnight. Another big attraction in Zim was Lake Kariba, especially for game fishing but i haven’t been there recently and would assume it has gone backwards just like the rest of the country. Now Zambia has taken over the crown. You can visit the falls from that side and walk right up to the falls. In fact there is a place where you can jump into a pool of water right on the edge of the falls. You could take a helicopter or plane ride over the falls and also walk over the bridge. You could even go over into Zim but be prepared to be ripped off. The town of Livingstone is the nearest to the falls and their are two great hotels there - the Royal Livingstone and the Zambezi Sun. The Royal is a luxury 5 star hotel as good as anywhere in the world and the Zambezi Sun is more affordable and more family orientated. Obviously there are many other lodges and hotels for all tastes. Definitely worth a visit at least once in your life just to see Vic Falls. We once went on a river cruise and were almost within touching distance of some elephants swimming in the river. It is still so wild that the taxi drivers drive extra slow at night in case hippos are crossing the road. At the Zambezi Sun I have a photo of some Zebra walking across the manicured lawn next to the swimming pool, within a few feet of some sunbathers. (Don’t try and touch though, they are wild animals)
General Most of Africa is underdeveloped and you will be surprised at how backwards most places are. The airports are generally tiny and miles away from what you will be used to. The taxis are old beat up cars and the buses look like they have been through the wars. This is a generalization and you CAN find luxury travel and accommodation in most places, it just isn’t the norm.
Petty crime could be a problem as most countries are poor (and in some places the monkeys are the thieves to watch out for).
Malaria is one of the big African problems and you need to be prepared.
Africa is HOT and air conditioning is a luxury few places can afford. The sun is not like anything you’re used to. (I once burnt blisters on a beach in Mozambique in 2 hours in the sun)
Africa is WILD - don’t take things for granted. Elephants/hippos/rhinos/wild pigs and even ostriches may look placid but don’t go up to them “just to get a picture” - you will be sorry. Monkeys, snakes, scorpions, spiders are all around and could end up in your room, even in 5 star lodges.
Don’t talk down to the locals or start speaking louder if they don’t understand you :). Most everywhere you will find people who speak good English, in fact much more so than in many places in Europe or South East Asia. And as in any place you go to, don’t denigrate the local customs or culture.
One last thing which I’ve seen many people end up in trouble over. Most of Africa has been in some type of war and many memories are still recent. They take their military and police seriously. DO NOT under ANY circumstance try to take pictures of military personnel or military vehicles. Do not try to take a picture of the “quaint” little police station or the convoy of military trucks. You will have your camera confiscated and may even end up arrested. You have been warned.
Please give me your take on the idiom, “Wat skop die kriek”.
I understand it as "What’s the cricket kicking ", meaning what is the time?, from the sound of the escapement on wind up clocks/watches.
But some think it derives from a particular watch maker, a humourless view.
[QUOTE=Carson O’Genic]
Please give me your take on the idiom, “Wat skop die kriek”.
I understand it as "What’s the cricket kicking ", meaning what is the time?, from the sound of the escapement on wind up clocks/watches.
But some think it derives from a particular watch maker, a humourless view.
[/QUOTE]
You’ve got me. Not only have I never heard that saying I would have no idea what it means beyond the literal translation (which you have correct). I’ll ask around and see if someone else has heard it. That’s definitely a new one for me.
What are housing prices and conditions like? How big is the average home of an average, middle-class wage-earner, and how much would it cost him or her?
Are most of the people Christians (nominal or otherwise)? Do the blacks still practice tribal religions, or are they mostly Christian as well?
[QUOTE=HeyHomie]
What are housing prices and conditions like? How big is the average home of an average, middle-class wage-earner, and how much would it cost him or her?
[/QUOTE]
As I’ve mention in previous replies there is obviously a huge disparity between the lower and middle classes but as you’re asking about the averages the following is about right:
Average home - 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom, kitchen, dining room, lounge. There are lots of “townhouses” (which would be a collective term for what in America would be semi-detached or condominiums). They are in complexes with security and access control - these are very popular because of crime and I would say they are
by far the majority of new places being built, as opposed to houses on their own stands. In the traditional white middle class suburbs the houses are generally quite big (a lot bigger than in Europe) with large gardens.
House prices - the formula for determining your affordability is between 1/4 and a 1/3 of your monthly salary towards house payments. You can get little for under R800 000 in a decent suburb (about $100 000) and most houses are between R1mill and R2mill (between $120 000 and $240 000). In the last few years our interest rates have gone up into double digits and this has made houses more expensive.
Most whites and blacks are Christian. We have a large Indian population who are Hindu or Muslim and a large proportion of our Coloured population is also Muslim. I am an atheist so I rarely discuss religion with anybody but I gather most people in my general circle would identify as nominally Christian. Most people end up in church only for weddings and funerals but there is a large proportion of people who take religion very seriously. Many private schools still pray in class. My impression is that most American fundamentalist Christians would probable feel right at home in many places here. I certainly wouldn’t run around proclaiming my Atheism to just anybody - there are enough nitwits here who believe Harry Potter is from the devil and evil. I would also say Christianity is more prevalent among Afrikaners than English speaking South Africans.
Freedom of religion is entrenched in our constitution and most public schools do not endorse any one religion. When I was in school however we had weekly Religious Study classes which were 100% Christian and certainly didn’t acknowledge any other religion. We also had Sunday School we were forced to attend.
The largest Christian denomination amongst the Afrikaners is Dutch Reformed with a large portion of Charismatic Churches. The largest Black Christian church is ZCC ( Zion Christian Church)
In the rural areas there is still a lot of belief in old tribal customs and religion and this is often mixed in with Christianity. A large portion of the Black population have a lot of faith in “Sangomas” (sort of tribal witch doctors) and “muti” (traditional medicine). They take concoctions to be successful, get more money or prevent disease. Many criminals even go to them to protect themselves from being shot or going to jail. (As our jails are overflowing it is obviously less effective than they hope)
[QUOTE=DangleYourModifier]
Average home - 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom, kitchen, dining room, lounge. There are lots of “townhouses” (which would be a collective term for what in America would be semi-detached or condominiums). They are in complexes with security and access control - these are very popular because of crime and I would say they are by far the majority of new places being built, as opposed to houses on their own stands. In the traditional white middle class suburbs the houses are generally quite big (a lot bigger than in Europe) with large gardens.
[/QUOTE]
Note that Dangle is meaning the average white/middle class home here - if you were to take the population as a whole, I’d guess it would be much smaller. In the 2001 census, only 63% of the population lived in a “formal dwelling”, with the rest living in “traditional dwellings” (read mudhuts), “informal dwellings” (read shacks in squatter camps) or “backyard dwellings” (read maid’s room at the back of the house). (Source Statistics SA WARNING - Whacking great PDF file, this data is on page 147; Chapter 11)
Grim