Assault Rifle Ban ends soon

-Although it’s only considered a “loophole” by the same people who assume that cosmetic differences have any effect on the lehality of a firearm.

-Cite?

I was always under the impression that a firearm was designed and intended to launch a projectile via the combustion of a propellant, and to do so accurately and reliably.

The use of said item is purely up to the user: “taking out groups of people” applies equally to the Korean store owners during the Rodney King riots as it does to the squad of soldiers out on patrol.

-No. In most juristictions, though with numerous exceptions, private sales from person to person are still legal with no paperwork. Thoughout California, however, even private transactions must go through a dealer and thus through the NICS (at least, the last I read about it, it may have changed since then.) I believe Chicago and New York all but ban private transactions as well.

However, even private sales have limits- one may not knowingly sell to a drug user, felon, or otherwise-ineligible person. To do so is itself a felony (5yr/$50K fine, etc.)

Straw man argument.

Prior to the '94 law, Federal law had already stated that a rifle barrel could not be shorter than 16", nor could the overall firearm length in any configuration (IE, folded or unfolded) be less than 26".

Yep, those dinky over-two-foot-long rifles sure are easy to conceal, compared to those huge-ass pistols that are a whopping 8" long (or 5-1/2" for a snubbie Chief’s Special revolver.)

Actually, Minty keeps saying how exceptionally dangerous and horrible these particular cosmetically-evil guns are, even though it’s already been stated that such things are used in a very small fraction of either gun crime or overall crime.

Minty simply doesn’t like them and so will argue any reason to ban them.

Ok, silencers make it easier to kill people and not be heard. I could see the logic in banning that.

“Cop killer” bullets? Ok, I can go without those.

No way! Home defense and whatnot. I’d have a burglar by the balls if he was at the wrong end of a laser sighted semi-automatic rifle.

I’m not sure how much more devastating higher calibers are. In fact, I believe smaller caliber weapons tend to be the murderers weapon of choice, since they have less recoil and make less noise.

Bolding mine.

So these people are already breaking the law. Passing another law will have some effect on this?

The NRA and most pro-gun folks would be the first ones to cheer if these criminals you describe get locked up. But, if they are already in violation, what’s the point of passing another law? 30,000 gun laws aren’t preventing these “shady Chigaco folks” from illegally owning guns. Will 1 more, or 1,000 more make a difference?

I fail to see how taking away my gun will stop these undesirables from having them.

I believe what you are saying and think it’s reasonable. However, I think most gun control advocates are against all guns and don’t care about the rights of gun owners at all. Minty’s posts certainly seem to lean in that direction.

It’s unrealistic to expect that the gun community would help their opponents in any way. Considering that most of the anti-gun folks just want to take away the guns, why would they? There is no reasonable concession that the NRA could make that would make the Brady people say “OK, that sounds reasonable, lets pack up and quit.”

The only way to show a significant increase is to increase the penalties for crimes committed with guns and to crack down on illegal gun ownership.

C’mon…isn’t this a little disingenuous? I don’t know if a definitive ‘cite’ could be found but doesn’t simple experience and observation tell us otherwise? Do soldiers use their sidearm or their M-16/AK-47/whatever more often? Wouldn’t one reasonably suppose that using an M-16 is superior at taking out large numbers of people and keeping its user alive than a 9mm pistol when in a war situation?

Fair enough but what if it is the burglar with the laser sighted gun and you without one?

I agree that a .45 is likely harder to shoot than a .22. I can also say that I expect if I am shot with a .22 or a .45 I am going down…the Terminator I’m not and don’t pretned otherwise.

However, assuming a non-lethal hit from either weapon aren’t I much worse off from the .45 impact? Say I got hit in the shoulder…will I even have a shoulder left (not to mention the use of the attached arm) if a .45 nailed me there?

Fair enough and I even mentioned in an earlier post that I could see how this might be a slippery slope enabling the outright gun ban people to get closer to their goal.

It’s unfortunate that our society seems to work this way. Many issue would be better off (not just gun control) if both sides could agree to a middle ground most can live with. You are likely to have loonies on the fringe (both sides) who will never be happy but the majority would be ok with it. Think of a typical bell curve and take, say, the middle 66% on this issue.

One caveat to this is that unlike many other divisive issues guns enjoy Constitutional protection in the US. Theoretically the NRA and other such lobby groups could propose legislation that gun owners can live with and would have a real impact on criminal use without real fear that they’ve given-up the ship to the outright ban advocates. They can’t get an amendment passed today…with real reform and a lessening of public perception (however skewed) of gun crimes there chances are less than zero.

Just from this thread I expect the real reason that the NRA won’t do such a thing is that it would seriously divide their own membership. Even here advocates of fewer gun laws have been dodgy at best about what would be reasonable restrictions. I thnk the gun ownership community would be hugely divided amongst itself if forced to come up with their own solution and THAT is what the NRA could not abide.

I am going to paste a post from another forum if the mods think this should be removed then feel free to do so.

You guys are asking for more definition of what should and shouldn’t be banned well take a gander at this:

Now let me tell you guys something if this thing passes then I am very afraid that you will get the guns you want…bullets first I am afraid.

The logic being that most gun owners I know personally were put out with the 94 ban and when as they said at the time that it wouldn’t be effective even more restrictive legislation would be passed. I think you fail to understand how much monkeying around with these currently law abiding citizens are willing to put up with.

My .02 YMMV

True if you 're not worried about hitting a target. If anything shooting from the hip makes a weapon less lethal to the intended targel. In any event a rifle with a conventional monte carlo type stock can be fired from the hip just as easily as one with a pistol grip. Yes, I have experienc in this from competition with shoulder stofcked submachineguns where shooting from the hip is occasionally required in a stage as it is is a handicap to fast and accurate shooting.

I think we need to come to an agreement on what an “assault weapon” is.

Everyone in this thread from what I can tell considers a weapon an assault weapon if it meets the criteria tracer posted:

A grenade launcher
A bayonet clip
A flash suppressor (or a threaded barrel that can accept one)
A protruding pistol grip
A folding stock

It’s been stated that the grenade launcher part is silly. They were already illegal. The grenades are only obtainable by specially licensed collectors and they are expensive.

Do you really think that the other criteria makes the weapon designed for taking out groups of people at a distance through withering fire.

So, you favor the banning of what exactly? All guns? All rifles?

All rifles that are similar to another weapon that meets the assault rifle criteria?

If I own a .22 and you make a .22 with a flash suppressor and a pistol grip, does my model get banned as well?

Buy one then so you won’t be at a disadvantage. :wink:

**

Since when did anybody encourage their soldiers to fire weapons from the hip? Even the M-60 was designed to be fired from either a prone position or from the shoulder. If you’re firing from the hip you’re probably not going to be hitting your target no matter how many bullets you put into the air.

Do you happen to have a cite that shows the hip or waist is the “assault” position?

**

That doesn’t make a lick of sense. If I’m firing from the waist or hip the flash from a rifle isn’t going to bother me nearly as much if I were firing it from the shoulder.

**

So why would anybody want to shoot from the hip?

Marc

… and more likely to accidentally hit something (or someone) that the shooter didn’t intend to shoot.

I would guess only if you are running and trying to shoot at the same time.

I doubt it’s an official military term, but Bushmaster sells a sling that it advertises as allowing “easier assault position carry of your weapon”. Also, this guy claims to have invented an “under the shoulder assault position”, and take a look at the description of the “tactical sling” near the bottom of this webpage.

My posts lean in the direction of challenging pro-gun propaganda. I have NEVER advocated anything resembling a general disarming of the public, and you are wrong to imply any such thing. If you want to know what I stand for when it comes to guns, find last year’s “What Is Reasonable Gun Control?” thread.

For about the tenth time in this thread, no. Rather, the “other criteria” are (or were, in 1995) strongly associated with such weapons. Chances are (or were) that such weapons had such features because they were designed for military use. Hence, the shorthand of defining the class with reference to common features, even though those features did not themselves define what was objectionable about the weapon.

It is a loophole in that it enables gun purchasers to avoid the necessity of a background check. You do favor background checks, don’t you, Doc?

[/QUOTE]

The first 20 or so times you did this it could have been a simple mistake, but since you’ve been told over and over what you posted above is clearly a deliberate attempt to be deceptive.
As you well know after being informed of it countless times on this very message board, the assault weapons ban does not affect fully automatic weapons (like the M-16) at all, thus mentioning fully automatic weapons as if they’re at all affected by the ban is simply dishonest.

Cite? Oh wait, it’s a Minty Claim ™, I won’t hold my breath waiting for a cite even though that’s a pretty amazing claim. And by cite, I don’t mean ‘a lawsuit which alleges that what you said was true’ - last time you used a lawsuit in progress as a cite, it ended up being thrown out by the judge as completely unfounded.

You ever going to provide a cite for those risks, or even state exactly what they are? As far as I can tell, the only quantifiable risk from assault weapons is that they make Minty Green uncomfortable.

Please, enumerate the risks from legally owned firearms, and provide a cite for the ‘multiplication’ effect you claim exists. Or is this just another non-factual assertion that we’ll never see a cite for? You’re explicitly making the claim that so-called ‘assault weapons’ have extra firepower, and that that firepower results in extra crime, deaths, injuries, and property damage, but you haven’t supported it with anything other than repitition of the claim.

You’re also making the implicit claim that legally owned firearms cause crime, a claim which you’ve been unable to substantiate for years. Isn’t it time to either put up or shut up?

Note that Minty is using ‘miltary-style assualt weapons’ to mean guns that ‘look like guns the military uses but have very large functional differences’ and not ‘guns that the military actually uses’.

Cite? This is just another case of you asserting assloads of stuff with some scary words (‘military stlye’, ‘military features’, etc) with no factual backing. You’ve been asked over and over to support your ‘kill assloads of people’ assertion, and have repeatedly failed to do so.

According to someone who has repeatedly failed to support his assertions.

IMHO, in a free country, stuff shouldn’t be banned absent a compelling reason.

You can speculate about the dangers of folding stocks all day long, but let’s face reality: (1) There’s absolutely no evidence – as opposed to speculation – that such things pose any appreciable and special danger; (2) there’s no evidence that restricting such things will appreciably improve crime rates or accident rates; and (3) all evidence points the other way.

Ultimately, that’s why I don’t favor an assault weapons ban.

If banning assault weapons would reduce crime, then we’d be presented with a more difficult question. But it wouldn’t and we aren’t.

Now, some folks seem to have the opposite philispohical viewpoint from me. They (apparently) believe that people shouldn’t have access to dangerous stuff without a compelling reason. Since it’s basically a question of values, there’s not much to debate over. But IMHO, such a viewpoint is repugnant to the values of a free society.

In a free society, people should be able to do stuff and own stuff without a compelling reason if those activities don’t pose a special threat to others. Just MHO.

That’s got to be the most absurd challenge ever, since ‘assault weapon’ as defined by the federal ban includes a number of pistols. As you’ve phrased the challenge, someone could take it using the exact same gun both times. Or worse for your case, take one of those crappy-but-scary-looking guns from Ingram for the ‘assault weapon’ and a target pistol for the ‘a pistol’, which (especially when done at the Bullseye pistol competition range of 25 or 50 yards) will result in a clear win for the non-assault weapon. Of course, what Minty really would like to say is ‘assault rifle’, but that would draw attention to the fact that an ‘assault rifle’ according to the military, historians, and pretty much everyone but the Brady Bunch is explicitly not covered by the ‘assault weapon’ ban.