again this is a completely seperate issue. And yes I require cites that people are picked on for their intelligence.
M’kay, of course I’ve been lurking here (and this is getting near the 10 pages I predicted), and I’m not feeling particularly “assholish” at the moment.
And this bit about 3rd grade caught my eye & reminded me…
That was a particularly awful year for me, one in which I was tormented extensively. Smartest girl in the class and all.
But you wanna know who wasn’t tormented, teased, or picked upon? The smartest boy in the class, and my boyfriend of course, by the name D.J.
Because he had a fantastic sense of humor.
Fessie, I’m sorry for losing my temper at ya, I’m not at my best when I’m at the bottom of a dogpile, especially for something I didn’t do. If you’d like to bury that ol’ hatchet, I’d be happy to.
Oh, and, that pretty much goes to prove my point. All things being equal, those who stand above (or below) the curve get smacked. Your boyfriend had a good defense mechanism, but I’d wager that if he’d been just a normal kid who happened to be smart, he would’ve caught the same shit you did.
Oh, and, third grade was pretty fucking rough for me too. Had a teacher who refused to let me go to the gifted and talented class when I was supposed to and delighted in giving me a hard time. It’s quite a fucking inventive mode of torture to force a dysgraphic kid to sit at his desk spell words over, and over, and over, and over… She actually had the nerve to tell my parents that of course she gave me a hard time, as I was a boy, and she favored girls as they had problems later in life. This dumb cow had the nerve to say this directly to my parents’ faces! Damn sharp faced cow…
Try reading the threads.
I started with one, and had people call me a braggart for it, remember? Also, I’ve had people post in this very thread stating that they got shit for being smarter, look at post 60. Hell, look at fessie most recent post. There are your cites. Why on earth you insist that your limited experience is more valid than other people’s blows my mind. Again, your personal experience doesn’t invalidate anybody else’s.
As for providing cites that children who are different are often picked on, and that people with high IQ’s are different from their classmates, you gotta be fucking kidding me. I’m not going to provide a cite on basic human nature to prove that kids tease those who are different. I’m not going to provide a cite that those who are developmentally older than their classmates are different, because it’s painfully obvious. I’m also not going to provide cites for the fact that water is wet, by the way.
But if you want some complicated mathatmatics to explain what’s blindingly obvious, how about… this cite?
[” At large high schools, playing time may be limited. In effect, such young people may be exchanging a respected position in a low status crowd, such as the “Brains,” for a disrespected role in a high-status crowd such as the Jocks or Preps.”
“We also asked about friends’ behavior: 24% said “My friends make fun of people who try to do real well in school,” ”
“We hypothesize that popularity and harassment depends on four things: Accomplishment in respected extracurricular activities, ASTS, where is the valuation peers place on sports and extracurricular achievements when they judge another student’s popularity and decide whether to harass him; Socializing with friends, APTP, where is the impact of socializing on peer judgments of popularity and the student’s likelihood of avoiding harassment; Conforming to peer group norms about academic commitment and achievement, (Li - LN)2, where LN is the school norm specifying the optimal level of academic achievement chosen by the leading crowd for the whole school or by the leaders of the crowd to which the student belongs and < 0 measures how strong conformity pressures are similar to peers in one’s commitment to academic learning [< 0]; and Costs that studious individuals impose on others by pushing ahead of them in a competitive ranking system, captured by Rj(Li - Lm) where Lm is the mean achievement level at the school and is less than zero when peers harass or ostracize the studious as “nerds…teachers pets…or acting White.” When = -1, the anti-nerd pressure against academic effort exactly offsets losses that trying harder imposes on others R(Li - Lm) because greater achievement for person ‘i’ increases school mean achievement, Lm, and lowers everyone else’s position relative to the mean (eg, rank in class). If < -1, anti-nerd peer pressure imposes larger costs on
the studious than they impose on their classmates. If students honor those who win academic competitions, would be positive. Schools with competitive admissions and nearly universal participation in AP courses such as Stuyvesant High School in New York City maintain a positive . Summarily, we have (7) an equation describing the determinants of harassment and popularity.”
“This is the first mechanism by which peer pressure discourages learning. Peers encourage each other to hangout and reward those who do with popularity. Unless studying can be done simultaneously with hanging out, the result is less study time and less learning.”
“Students high on the negative peer pressure index [one of whose items is ‘my friends make fun of those who try to do real well in school’] were also harassed much more frequently”
Ex-freakin-cetera]( http://www.allaboutkids.umn.edu/WingfortheWeb/42189%20AmSch_Bishop.pdf)
I think this wraps it up quite nicely:
In other words, this knowledge is necessary to have a debate on this issue. You didn’t posses this knowledge, and yet you still argued.
Good gods… no I don’t agree because that’s a painfully simplistic formulation.
They were bullied, because they were good at school, and wouldn’t give up their answers. See, being forced to give cheat or be beaten up? That’s a hardship.
In other words, being faced with a choice to cheat or get the shit kicked out of you is kinda a problem, dontcha think?
For children, IQ can be taken to mean developmental age over actual age times 100. Of course children with higher IQ’s had higher developmental ages, that’s what it means to have a high IQ. The relationship gets trickier as someone ages, which is why for the most part they’ve abandoned the developmental/actual formulation and replaced it with “deviation IQ”
From the very start of the article
So are you not reading the cites, or you’re reading them and purposefully taking up a position that you know is false in an attempt to stir up shit?
This is just silly.
You actually tried to argue that the developmental age of high IQ children was the problem… deliberately ignoring that their IQ means that they’re at a higher developmental age. I don’t know why you’re arguing in this manner, but it’s damn strange.
Again, color me gobsmacked.
I’ve given you cites showing that high IQ children have trouble making friends early in school, and another cite showing you that children who have trouble making friends early in school have problems that manifest by 18 including taking a heavy hit to self-esteem… and you can’t see how this is relevant?
You being serious? You honestly don’t see a relationship between not having friends due to high IQ and then having problems because you didn’t have friends?
Honestly, I think at this point you’re purposefully being as difficult as you can. I have no idea why, but to have the sheer willful ignorance required to look at one cite showing how high IQ children have problems because their developmental age is higher than their peers, and complain that it doesn’t talk about them when they’re older, and then complain some more when you’re furnished with a cite showing that children who have problems making friends have problems when they’re older… well, I don’t think you’re interested in an intellectual debate with any honesty. I think you’re looking for any way to pick holes in the fact that some intelligent kids catch shit for being intelligent. I have no idea why you have this agenda, and frankly, I really don’t care anymore, you’re acting like milroyj in a cite-fight. If you continue on with these tactics, I’ll have nothing further to say to you.
I find it interesting that the only post you’ve so far ignored, Finnagain, has been mine, in which I recommended that you go out and actually do something for others who are not as fortunate - fundraising, political activism, finding a cure for some mental or physical condition. But you’d really rather create a 7-page thread all about You.
I find you somewhat contemptible and suprisingly unimaginative in your vocabulary - all that “fucking moron”, “bitch” (your name for a female poster that disagrees with you), and “mediocretins.”
Remember to flush the toilet when you’ve finished vomiting up hatred for other human beings with different perspectives to your own.
While I do think that sometimes letting all that pent up anger out can be healthy, and that the Pit is definitely the place to do it, I agree with you Sarah - this discussion played a few notches too loud has run its course. If I were FinnAgain, I’d walk away.
(As someone with your username and location, Sarah, I presume you do understand he has a point, so that you just take issue with the poor manner in which he is making it.)
(God I loved that book.)
No, actually I ignored you because you were being fucking stupid and obnoxious. You have no idea what social projects I’m engaged in, and it’s ridiculous for you to suggest that since I’m posting on the Dope, I can’t be part of any.
S’okay, I’ve thought you were just an annoying bitch since I first saw you posting. I really couldn’t care less what you think of me. But it’s nice to know that you’re willing to spill some ink since I ignored your previous idiocy.
Yeah, I know… it’s a damn shame that I don’t have a larger bag of insults, because when you get angry and flame somone, stylistic rigidity is simply gauche!
Listen you dirty lying piece of filth, I most certainly do not use “bitch” to refer to women who disagree with me, and you’re a contemptible liar for claiming that. I use the word ‘bitch’ to refer to women who’re acting like assholes. Some words in English have gendered uses, and one generally refers to a man as a bastard or an asshole, and a woman as a bitch. You, for instance, are a bitch. See?
Actually, I think that mediocretin is a pretty inventive phrase. If you don’t like it, take it up with “Bob”. Either that or go fuck yourself. I’m easy that way.
Mmm hm… I hate people with different perspectives. Unfortunately, your lil’ pet hypothesis doesn’t explain why I’m able to have perfectly rational discussions and disagreements on the Dope. If, however, you’re trying to take me to task for smacking down ignorant loud-mouthed posters, in the Pit of all places, I’d invite you to jam a wolverine up your ass.
Night night sweetheart.
~shrugs~
I’m close to the end. I’ve established my point on factual grounds.
The poor manner in which I’m making it?
I start making it, and I’m jumped on and insulted. I respond to those insults, and then start this Pit thread. Flame-war ensues. I provide cites, proof, and factual confirmation. How would you go about making my point? Especially if people starting insulting you for making it?
And do you think schools should eliminate the social environment? I find this to be absolutely ridiculous, if only because schools have never been just about the books. A social system emerges from any institution. How does reducing the time students interact with each other outside of the classroom benefit them when the whole point of school is to prepare students for the “real world”–which, by definition, is the world outside of the classroom?
Do you really not see why friendship in high school is not relevant to this particular discussion? Or are you just being argumentative?
A nice person will at least grant another person the priviledge of teaching him or her something, even if they already know it. And teaching does not always involve instruction and pedagogy. It can include something as simple as sharing a different point-of-view or opinion. Good relationships are built on reciprocity. If I ask you about your ideas for solving world hunger, I would at least expect you to return the question when you’re done answering it. It would be nice if you were to do this. All the arrogant people I know don’t care to reciprocate in this way, and that’s why all of them are jerks.
A know-it-all thinks that there’s no one out there that he could possibly learn from. But a cool and intelligent person knows that we all contain an interesting wealth of knowledge and ideas. He doesn’t automatically assume that that he “knows it all”. Nor does he automatically assume that he knows “more than” anyone else.
I don’t think people should be treated worse, even if they are arrogant jerks. But people who ARE arrogant shouldn’t be surprised when people don’t want to hang out with them, or if people get pissed off whenever they open their mouth. A person who finds that others routintely treat him badly would do good to evaluate his own behavior first before blaming society.
And that’s all you can do.
Don’t make the mistake to expect the unreasonable to respond to reason, and don’t expect insult to cure injury. It’s as simple as that. Except it can sometimes be really hard. I wish you patience. 
You seen that thread about little children and temper tantrums? Similar wisdom applies …
monstro, I’m not going to debate pedagogy with you. Simply won’t. And by the way, if you don’t think that pointing out a different point of view falls under both pedagogy and instruction, you really shouldn’t be using either of those words.
Nor am I going to discuss how someone who is an expert on a topic shouldn’t be bothered with some kid whose ego is dependant on being able to teach the expert something. In sure Stephen Hawking wants to hear alllllll about monstro’s thoughts on physics.
Arwin, you’re (sorta :p) right. When I started this thread, it wasn’t so much to convince people, as it was to save the other thread from a hijack and get some ranting out of my system. I’ve accomplished both of those, and thrown in enough evidence to choke a horse. Although I haven’t seen the thread about temper tantrums, I do think that being able to blow off steam in a good rant after you’ve been given shit is an acceptable use of the Pit. I still think that this Pitting was justified, and that although I did get pretty pissed off, it was in the Pit and not beyond the pale. I’m no buddha.
As a side note people who are ignorant and yet open their mouths real wide are one of my pet peeves. I don’t talk, I don’t post, I don’t have anything to say, most of the time, on subjects which I do not know reasonably well, and it bothers me to no end when other people do. If someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about, it’s extremely jerkish to join an argument, without the facts, only to be difficult. It’s just bad form.
YMMV, of course.
bolding mine
AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!
::Head asplodes::
You joined a rant about something you knew absolutely nothing about (behaviour of some parents on a message boards for parents and parents-to-be), to try to show wisdom to the masses about a topic that was only tangentially related to the OP. You misunderstood the topic of the original thread and made a post that could be perceived as bragging just like the people the OP complains about. Then you go off on a huge rant about what was perceived by many people to be good-natured ribbing for your unintentional irony (which is still there whether you see it or not) until you had the afore-mentioned Pit rant.
And now you tell us that you hate people who open their mouths about shit they know nothing about! Like you and your complete lack of experience with the topic of the original thread’s OP? Like you and your inablility to understand the concept of coming across differently than you intend? Like you and your inability to see irony when you are the one who caused it?
Fuck, FinnAgain, you just lost my respect completely–not that you care 'cuz I’m not near as smart as you and all. But after you lose the respect of enough of the poor stupid masses, you won’t have anyone to interact with at all here–we aren’t all up to your apparent brilliance. Fucko off!
Finn
“Pointing out a different view” is exactly what we’ve been doing for the last 7 pages! If you’re under the impression that that is the same thing as pedagogy, then perhaps you shouldn’t be using that word, Mr. Better-Than-Thee.
Geez, I’m losing more and more respect for you every time you post.
How did you become such an argumentative asshole? monstro said nothing that would warrant you to discuss such bullshit anyway, especially the little insult at the end. But thanks for sparing us.
Go outside and get some fresh air.
Oh boy. ~yawns~
I thought I understood the topic, when it was clear I didn’t. I stopped posting about it and apologized. The tangent I bought up, however, I did know about. Try again sweetheart.
And again,I wasn’t bragging. If you want to still perceive it as bragging, that’s your damage, not my problem.
Yeah… calling someone a braggart is good natured ribbing. :rolleyes:
That defense is cowardly, stop it. If it isn’t beneath you it should be.
No you freakin’ tool. Once it was clear that I had missed the topic, I apologized and stopped posting on it. If you’ve read this thread, it should be pretty clear, however, that as to the tangent I raised, I did know what I was talking about.
No schmuck, I understand that. What I don’t understand is after a poster says “I wasn’t bragging” people continue to say “you were bragging!”
Listen you shit flinger, it would be ironic if I was bragging, and I wasn’t. Otherwise that ‘irony’ only exists because people misread my text. Jeez, I don’t know why I’m wasting time on you.
Correct, I don’t give a shit what you think about me. And it has nothing to do with you being ‘less intelligent’ than me, and everything to do with you simply being an ignorant asshole.
Actually, there are quite a few Dopers who are very intelligent. You’re just not one of them.
You are so busy being a jerk that you don’t see how arrogant this post comes across.
Why do you assume that Stephen Hawking wouldn’t want to hear about my thoughts on physics? Does he have a monopoly on thoughts about physics? Do I have to possess a Ph.D in physics to have ideas about it? To even broach the topic with him? Just because I can’t teach him much about physics, does that mean he has nothing to learn from me? Does being a top expert in a field mean that you know everything?
You know nothing about me. You don’t know what my academic pursuits are. You don’t know what publications I’ve produced. You don’t know how many degrees I possess. You don’t know what positions I have held. You don’t know what my intellectual hobbies are. So do not deign (yes, a big word) to assume that Stephen Hawking or any other “genius” wouldn’t want to hear what I have to say about anything. You aren’t the only smarty-pants walking around here, you know.
You aren’t even civil to people who are trying to maintain a basic, non-insulting conversation with you, FinnAgain. I’ve had my spats with you, no doubt. And I don’t have any apologies for the caustic remarks I have volleyed your way. But I’ve never told you to “fuck off”. Nor have I had ever issued any harsh insults your way. But now I’m ready to say, FUCK YOU, JACKASS. You are an arrogant prick. The quote above demonstrates it. Any sympathy I had for you has completely blown away (and I don’t care that you don’t care, so nyah nyah!)
There are many posters on the Dope who I know are highly intelligent. How do I know this? Because they show it. They don’t have to constantly tell us or “prove” it by broadcasting their scores or by lamenting the fact that no one understands them because they are so smart (boo freakin’ hoo). Nor do they have to remind us what degrees they have or how many years they’ve spent in the “ivory tower”. They are awesome and command respect. You are not and do not.
You need to learn from people like this, you ignorant little fucktard. But I expect you’ll continue shaking your head and behaving as if I’m just another poster unduly “attacking” you. 'Cuz, you know, matyrdom is the last refuge for the hopeless.
No. You’ve been pointing out an incorrect view. You were wrong. See? Wrong ideas and correct varied interpretations are not to be given equal weight. Again, don’t hide behind “but it’s my opinion!” Your ‘point of view’ was wrong. Simply wrong. Deal.
Instructional strategies include pointing out alternate vantage points. Again, if you don’t understand that, don’t talk about pedagogy.
Oh, and, by the way, pointing out alternate view points is only valid as long as those view points have some merit to them. In a debate about children being harrased for intelligence, the point “That doesn’t happen” is ignorant and wrong, it shouldn’t be given equal weight with the truth.
I’ll stay up all night crying. I promise.
Check monstro’s first post to this thread. Evidently he’s been nursing a hardon for me since I posted about linguistics and cog’ sci’ and, lo and behold, knew what I was talking about.
And, ‘the little insult’ at the end?
For the love of truth, I was pointing out why his premise was bankrupt. It is arrogant and egotistical to think that just because you can flap your gums, without doing any research, an expert needs to hear you.
And as for what he said that would warrant a disucssion of ‘such bullshit’, what exactly was bullshit? Pointing out that he was totally wrong about instructional strategies? Yeah… becuase fighting ignorance is just out of style these days. :rolleyes:
Quotes from your article:
“Aptitude test scores were unrelated to clique membership”
“Nearly 100,000 students at Alliance schools were given a list of 12 traits and asked to describe the qualities of the members of the “most popular crowd (your gender)…during the first year of middle or junior high school….” Trait were ranked as: cool clothes (64%), attractive (61%), funny (60%), good in sports (55%), outgoing (53%), self-confident (48%), tough (31%), not attentive in class (24%), worked hard for grades (22%), attentive in class (21%), smart (19%), and made fun of those who study (18%)”
School achievement is relatively insignificant compared to personality. Even those that put it down as a factor 24% said not attentive in class while 21% said attentive in class, 22% said worked hard for grades while 18% said made fun of those who study. In other words according to these junior high achieving in school had little effect on membership in the popular crowd.
"1) 1) It’s not cool to frequently volunteer answers or comments in class. (Agree = 19%, Disagree = 81%); It’s not cool to study real hard for tests and quizzes. (Agree =5%, Disagree = 85%); It’s not cool to be enthusiastic about what you are learning in school.” (Agree = 27%, Disagree = 73%); It’s not cool to be competitive about grades. (Agree = 51%, Disagree = 49%); It’s annoying when other students talk or joke around in class. (Agree =40%, Disagree = 60%); It’s annoying when students try to get teachers off track. (Agree = 42%, Disagree = 58%). We also asked about friends’ behavior: 24% said “My friends make fun of people who try to do real well in school,” and 56% said “My friends joke around and annoy the teacher.”
As you can see according to your cite the vast majority do not believe it is not cool to volunteer in class, study for tests and quizes or be entusiastic about school. Do note however that 51% said it was not cool to be competitive about grades.
“This is the first mechanism by which peer pressure discourages learning. Peers encourage each other to hangout and reward those who do with popularity. Unless studying can be done simultaneously with hanging out, the result is less study time and less learning.”
Well holy shit you’re kidding. The kids that spend more time socializing gasp are more popular than the ones that spend their time studying. I have to say this shocking revelation has changed my entire view on high school social dynamics.
“Students high on the negative peer pressure index [one of whose items is ‘my friends make fun of those who try to do real well in school’] were also harassed much more frequently”
Again this quote is referring to middle school but following that:
“Holding negative peer pressure constant, students who were 1.5 SDs above the mean (93rd percentile) on GPA and the commitment indices were harassed 43 times a year, a 42% increase from the baseline student. Students hanging out in cliques that were 1.5 SDs below the school mean on GPA and academic commitment were harassed about 39 times a year a 30% increase over the baseline level.”
In other words students who varied from the mean GPA whether it be above or below were harassed. It is true that those who had a higher GPA were harassed slightly more than the ones below but 4 times a year isn’t that significant.
If I had to sum up that study in one sentence it would be those who deviated from social norms where harassed and excluded from the popular cliques.
Don’t bother trying to find anymore cites becuase I am tired of reading them to find they don’t say what you claim they do.
Funny… which of us is ignorant and yet has the unmitigated arrogance to think that experts should listen to him because he wants to talk and have his ego petted?
Gee. No reason. :rolleyes:
About physics? No. About other things? Possibly. But that doesn’t mean that he would have to indulge you if you wanted to talk about physics just because you widdle ego wants to think you can teach people.
Oh, and, in general it’s best not to be a fucking arrogant prick while you’re trying to accuse others of it. You can’t teach someone like hawkings “much”? Try anyting. Try, compared to someone like that you’re simply an ignorant fuck who would do far better to listen and learn than talk. But I know, you’re so special and wonderful that one of the greatest living physicists should consult with you.
Sure I do. You’re an idiot.
And yet, I also know that nobody’s come out who rivals Hawking, and that even if they had, they’d be much smarter than you. It’s a pretty safe bet that you’ve not the next Stephen Hawking. Call it a hunch.
See, this is why you’re a moron. I didn’t say about ‘anything’, I specifically said about ‘physics.’
But I’m sure you’re writing some pretty advanced papers when you read ‘physics’ as ‘anything’
“Ladies and gentlemen of the Academy, I would like to present my paper on neuclear anything. Now, the anythingal properties of…”
I’m well aware of that. But it’s also quite clear that whoever else is in that club, you aint.
That’s a simple lie. And you should be ashamed. If, by the way, you’re going to claim you’re a victim here, look at your first post to this thread. Then shut your mouth.
Mmmm hmmm.
One of us thinks that the greatest genius in phsysics today should listen to his thoughts on physics because he wants to have his ego stroked and feel that he’s teaching people things.
One of us thinks that’s ridiculous.
Can you spot which of us is being arrogant? Is it the guy who thinks he can teach Stephen Hawking a thing or two about physics? Naw, couldn’t be.
P.S. It’s not arrogant to point out that your position is stupid. It is. Deal.
“We’re missin’ a moron! Oh no, we’re missin’ a moron!” -Bill Hicks
How many posts do I have on the Dope? How many have I mentioned my high school experience in? Constantly? You’re a tool and a liar. And an arrogant asshole who wants everybody to listen to him because his insights simply must be heard! Janus faced jackass.
That’s okay, becuase you’ve totally made up qualities that I supposedly have in order to make your weak ass rant hang together. In one discussion on linguistics, I mentioned that I’d been studying it for years. Ya know, talking about my credentials when they’re relevant?
And by the way, one of us is ignorant, and it aint me. Look back over this thread sugarpie.
I don’t think I’m a martyr, I think you’re a moron who talks far too much.
** FinnAgain **, You just don’t get it. Just recently lowly me and simple engineering student who has taken a grand total of one sociology class had a discussion with a lofty ivory tower expert sociologist. And guess what? I was right and we both benefitted from that discussion. If she had just said phhh I have spent 25 years studying this you can’t possibly know more than me that conversation would not have happened. I would have considered her an asshole and neither of us would have gained anything. Since she didn’t we had an enjoyable discussion, our social bond increased a bit and I look foward to speaking with her again.
That should be a simple engineering student.