Astral Projection

[Joe_Random]

@lekatt

that most individuals are brain and heart dead when they take place.

“Heart dead” means very little. Having a stopped heart is a bad thing, but it can be recovered from. However, you are flat out wrong when you say that individuals experiencing NDEs are brain dead. “Brain death” is defined as an irreversible cessation of brain activity. Specifically, if the entire brain stops working (including the brain stem) then the person cannot recover. They are permanently dead.

some of these have been in controlled conditions like Pam Reynolds where she was dead (by medical/clinical definition) for about 2 hours.

Pam Reynolds was not brain dead. She had depressed brain activity that was artificially induced to facilitate surgery. In fact, she had no cortical brain activity at all. However, inducing hypothermic cardiac arrest does not stop activity in the brain stem.

Yes, there are those who have had near death experiences without being clinically dead. In most of these cases there was a real honest belief on the part of the individual that death was certain.

Which just goes to prove my point. People experience weird things when their brain is at the edge of its operating parameters. If they think that they might die, and they have heard enough stories of near death experiences, then they are going to interpret what they experience as a NDE. This includes people who experience weird things even when they’re nowhere close to death, but just think that they are.

Many of these accounts have been verified by the doctors and professional people present.

And I’m sure that none of these “verifications” are at all biased, right? :rolleyes: This is why we need a controlled study before I’ll take this stuff seriously. The problem is that people want to believe. Hell, I’d be thrilled if I found out that NDEs are real. Unfortunately, lacking a properly controlled study, I have to take people’s personal testimony with a grain of salt.

There is an least one scientific study and affirms this phenomenon.

Cite, please.

The cause of NDEs is death of the body, when the spirit (you) thinks/knows/has reason to believe the body can no longer support the physical environment it leaves.

Then why doesn’t every person who thinks that they’re dying have a NDE?

You then look down on your body and from there we have a near death experience.

Look with what? How does one’s spirit see without intercepting photons?

A very real spiritual experience that every one who has it knows it’s real.

I’m extremely doubtful of that. I’m pretty sure that some of the people who experience what you would call a NDE would just say “Wow, that was weird. The brain can do some pretty funky stuff when it’s in the process of dying.”

The Near Death Experience WildCard

You keep giving us that link even though it offers no solid scientific support for you case. Why? Do you not care that the link doesn’t offer good support? Sure, it gives several anecdotes. It also has two, honest-to-goodness scientific studies. The first never even attempts to determine if NDEs are real. The other, besides lacking a large enough sample to be useful, also admits that its protocols are incomplete.

So, basically, you have some anecdotes, and some non-useful scientific studies. So what’s the point of throwing that link around in here where you know that we’re looking for more than that? We want properly-conducted studies that come to the conclusion that the soul exists and leaves the body during a NDE. Anything less is simply not going to cut it here.

[Q.E.D]

@lekatt

…most individuals are brain…dead when they take place.

You keep saying this, but it simply is not true. Once you are brain dead, you are permanently dead. You don’t come back afterward. It’s the end. Fini. I asked you before for a reputable citation to back up the claim that a brain-dead person can be revived, and I will continue to do so until you either provide one, or admit you were wrong.

[Czarcasm]

@Aeschines

Why not just call NDEs bullshit from the start and forget them?.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

[Aeschines]

@Czarcasm

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Apparently you couldn’t answer my specific arguments, either.

How unlike you!

[Aeschines]

The cite for the controlled NDE study, performed in the Netherlands and published in Lancet, one of the world’s most respected medical journals.

http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

If this direct pdf link doesn’t work, please access it here (look for link near top of page):

http://www.iands.org/dutch_study.html#how_to_find

The IANDS site is quite good overall.

[Joe_Random]

@Aeschines

The cite for the controlled NDE study, performed in the Netherlands and published in Lancet, one of the world’s most respected medical journals.

Zarqon Lifestyle magazine - Stay up to date with cutting edge technology information with Zarqon.co.uk

I have seen that study before (lekatt likes to cite that one). All it does is examine what conditions make cardiac patients predisposed to experience the phenomenon commonly referred to as a Near Death Experience (NDE). It also examines things like recovery rates among those who experience NDEs, as well as how much of a “life changing event” those who experience a NDE feel it to be.

However, nowhere in the study do they determine (or even attempt to determine) whether or not NDEs are “real” (i.e. consist of the soul leaving the body and being able to observe things in locations that the patient could not have observed or inferred).

In other words, the study says that people have NDEs. Yeah, I think we can all agree that people have NDEs. The study never examines the validity of NDEs, though, and that is what is under debate here.

Still, it is an interesting study.

[Aeschines]

@Joe Random

I have seen that study before (lekatt likes to cite that one). All it does is examine what conditions make cardiac patients predisposed to experience the phenomenon commonly referred to as a Near Death Experience (NDE). It also examines things like recovery rates among those who experience NDEs, as well as how much of a “life changing event” those who experience a NDE feel it to be.

However, nowhere in the study do they determine (or even attempt to determine) whether or not NDEs are “real” (i.e. consist of the soul leaving the body and being able to observe things in locations that the patient could not have observed or inferred).

In other words, the study says that people have NDEs. Yeah, I think we can all agree that people have NDEs. The study never examines the validity of NDEs, though, and that is what is under debate here.

Still, it is an interesting study.

Distortions here. The writer details one patient who was able to tell where the staff had stashed his glasses, even though he could not have known where. Also, it is very clear to anyone whose mind is open that the writer was taking care not to gush–it is written in an almost overly subdued fashion.

But let readers read for themselves to see what it said and means.

[Czarcasm]

Yeah, it was a great study. It repeated anecdotes, but didn’t provide any evidence that the anecdotes were valid. It took patients at their word when they said that they had had their NDE happen during the time they had flatlined. Neat trick, that-knowing while you were unconscious when exactly in real time you were dreaming. When the patients memories of the NDEs changed with time to become more pleasant than they originally remembered, the study concluded, for no reason whatsoever, that the earlier memories were defective, and that the newer ones were more accurate! And the conclusion? Sorry, but they didn’t exactly come to any real conclusions. Goose egg. Nada. Zip. Zero. In the end, they concluded that they didn’t know what causes NDEs.
But don’t let the facts stop you, lakatt and other Keepers of the Flame from touting it as something it isn’t-evidence of astral projection.

[Joe_Random]

@Aeschines

The writer details one patient who was able to tell where the staff had stashed his glasses, even though he could not have known where.

Actually, it was his dentures. And they stashed them while in the same room as the guy. Yes, he was undergoing CPR at the time, but he could have

a) felt his dentures being removed, followed by hearing the drawer open and shut.

b) heard one of the staff mention where the dentures were.

c) hallucinated the whole thing and just happened to be right.

The thing is, with just one data point, there’s no way to tell if there was anything extraordinary going on or not.

[Czarcasm]

@Aeschines

Apparently you couldn’t answer my specific arguments, either.

How unlike you!

No. I’m tired of answering those specific arguments over and over and over again. I’m not climbing into the woo-woo hampster wheel again. Why bother answering them when the answers will be ignored, and the questions will be asked again in too short a period of time, as if they were brand new, by you or someone like you. You want answers to those questions? Fine. See that little “Search” button at the top of your screen? If you use it you will find that your questions, and any other questions on the topic, have already been dealt with.

[Aeschines]

@Czarcasm

I’m not climbing into the woo-woo hampster wheel again. Why bother answering them when the answers will be ignored, and the questions will be asked again in too short a period of time, as if they were brand new, by you or someone like you.

All animosity and sarcasm aside, that’s what it feels like on this side of the debate as well. At any rate, cheers.

[Atticus_Finch]

@Aeschines

With NDEs, the difference is that the skeptics continue to believe in the reality of their experience forever.

Jesus H Christ - say it with me, people:

CITE?

[Aeschines]

@Joe Random

Actually, it was his dentures. And they stashed them while in the same room as the guy. Yes, he was undergoing CPR at the time, but he could have

a) felt his dentures being removed, followed by hearing the drawer open and shut.

b) heard one of the staff mention where the dentures were.

c) hallucinated the whole thing and just happened to be right.

The thing is, with just one data point, there’s no way to tell if there was anything extraordinary going on or not.

Thanks for the corrections and points. Considering that the worldview of the scientific elite is at such odds with the implications of NDE phenomena, I should think it will take another 50 - 100 years of such “data points” for the tide really to turn.

Maybe in a century or so we’ll have a periodic table of the soul. Right now, all we have is phlogiston and discord. It’s going to be a long, hard wait.

[Aeschines]

@lambchops

Jesus H Christ - say it with me, people:

CITE?

Nice try. I have pointed out that the media skeptics have been completely unable (except for one quasi-case I have seen) to come up with ANYONE willing to say that their NDE was bullshit.

If the cases exist, the skeptics would surely emphasize them, non?

My cite, as it were, is a lack of cites. Contraiwise, people positive toward the phenomena and investigating them talk only about people who think their experience was REAL.

Any disagreement with the above?

[Czarcasm]

I do so love it when people use the loaded term “scientific elite”. It’s so much more sophisticated than “egghead”, “knowitall” or “smartypants”, doncha think?
Now I’m going to point this out just one more time so, for the Love O’ Ghod, The Invisible Pink Unicorn, and all of their offspring(legitimate and otherwise), please pay attention:
No one is saying that people who experience NDEs are lying about experiencing NDEs. No one is saying that some of the people who have experienced NDEs
don’t believe that their experiences were real.
We are NOT saying they lie.
We are saying that they are mistaken.
One more time, just to make it clear.
We are not saying they lie.
We are saying that they are mistaken.

If you misrepresent this position one more time, I will have to assume that you are doing it deliberately.

[Aeschines]

Were you talking to me in your last post? I wasn’t saying you were saying that NDErs lie.

Yes, you say they are mistaken.

Yes, I agree the issue is whether they are mistaken or not.

By “scientific elite” I mean specifically people who do science and are in positions of power or influence. I do not intend the term to be pejorative at all.

[Czarcasm]

Then let me rephrase it for you.
“Those who study and understand science are at odds with those who do not study and understand science.”
BTW, not for one minute do I believe that you used the term “scientific elite” in a non critical way-it is a catchphrase long used by those who wish to demean scientists.

[Aeschines]

@Czarcasm

Then let me rephrase it for you.
“Those who study and understand science are at odds with those who do not study and understand science.”
BTW, not for one minute do I believe that you used the term “scientific elite” in a non critical way-it is a catchphrase long used by those who wish to demean scientists.

I am inexperienced in demeaning scientists, as I rarely have qualms with either their methods or conclusions. If indeed “scientific elite” has such baggage, I will discontinue my use thereof.

You and I are generally on the same side. I’m shocked at your hostility.

But I’m a forgiver.

[Musicat]

Because an NDE experience feels so real, it must have been.

Aeschines, is this your position? Your claim? If so, just how does this work? Is the amount of reality we associate with a dreamlike experience the guide to whether it actually happened or not? And what is the logic behind this?

And does this apply to Astral Projection? If it feels real, it was?

[Algernon]

I knew when I opened this thread about Astral Projection that it would devolve into an argument about Near Death Experiences.

I conclude therefore that I must have the gift of pre-cognition. There is as much (if not more) evidence for it as there is for AP. I can’t do it on demand mind you, so it is not testable. It just sometimes happens naturally. And it feels so real. It’s not just a feeling of guessing, it’s a feeling of certainty.

Maybe I should write a book? Or better yet, create a web site where other pre-cogs and believers can gather to discuss our wonderful experiences.

It is truly a shame that the scientific elite with their insistence on controlled conditions and repeatability keep the door closed to this amazing phenomenon. They insist on seeing it before believing it. They just don’t understand that some things just have to be believed to be seen.