Near Death Experience : science vs. spirituality

Great Debates
1

This is my first thread in Great Debates, so please don’t shoot me for not supplying cites or anything.
There have been several discussions about Near Death Experience the last time LeKat was visiting this board.

Most of these got split into two camps : the scientific camp and the religious/spiritual camp.
The scientific camp would then come up with experiments that have been performed which cause healthy, conscious people to undergo the same sensations as a person who had a Near Death Experience.
This argument always seems to get a lot of flack from the religious/spiritual side.

Now my question is this : why does this scientifically explainable process of the brain (that can be reproduced) diminish the claims of the spiritual people?
If I was one of them (at this time in my life I am leaning more to the scientific side) I would consider this proof of design.
In other words : this spiritual experience is hardwired into our brains.
This doesn’t diminish anything, but actually strengthens it : our brain is setup so that when we die, we go through a spiritual process to get closure.

Any thoughts?

2

I think it’s largely a function of Occam’s razor at work. If we’ve established that there is a biological basis for these experience, there’d no need to create any other cause.
If you do that, where do you stop? Geological processes? Physics? We’ve steadily moved away from crediting gods with natural processes…and that’s a good thing, IMO. Generally, this comes with our increased understanding.

As far as ‘design’ goes…I think I’d rather a lot of the other little design flaws of then human body be fixed (eyes, ears, prostate, tail bone, pelvis, etc.) rather than have this dubious ‘closure’ when i die.

3

There is a naturally-produced - “endogenous” - hallucinogenic compound readily produced in the brain called DMT. As with all powerful mind-altering substances (DMT is more powerful than LSD) the effects are entirely subjective and ultimately ineffable. The trip varies from person to person and from experience to experience but there are themes: You hear a loud noise, leave your body, enter the light, and meet other beings. Don’t you think that sounds a lot like a Near-Death-Experience, or even an alien abduction? Interesting…

The only reason this is news is because the American drug policy forbids any exploration into the psychedelic experience. Regardless, shamanism was the first “religion”, dating back to 30,000 years ago and is not going away any time soon. We will all be hearing more about DMT in the future, whether or not Lekatt likes it.

Rick Strassman did the only DMT study so far allowed by the American government. In “DMT: The Spirit Molecule”, he explores psychedelic drugs, but largely focus’ on DMT and the role it might play in our spirituality. More importantly, he addresses the question of what it is doing in our brains?

As always, there’s erowid.org for realiable, non-biased, information on this mystical compound.

DMT, moses, and the quest for transcendence
DMT World
Lycaeum

4

Nice meeting you Psilocybin.
Nice username too.
I think it is very interesting in how there is a lot of similarity between certain brain-processed when under the influence of psychedelic or hallucinogenic drugs and the whole spiritual experience or even religious extasy.
While a lot of people are using the science to undermine the spiritual, I think it is much more interesting to look at the similarity.
Why does the brain produce these feelings under certain conditions?
Does this mean that religion is hardwired into our brains like we need it somehow?

I don’t have any answers, but would like to discuss anyone’s thought about it.

5

I.e., you bring to the question, which has a clear “spiritual” aspect in that it’s one of the primary questions supposedly answered by religions, the presumption that if something can be explained by biological processes, it must be explained by biological processes, and that any metaphysical aspects of the issue are mooted.

Suppose, just for a second, a generic ID universe, differing from the mechanistic one only in being teleological. Such a universe would have induced evolution of the classic Tunnel-and-Light NDE in sapient creatures as a methodology for inducing contemplation of the afterlife. Such a phenomenon would happen due to clear physiological reasons, but have a purpose beyond them. (Notice that “God” in the traditional theist view doesn’t enter into this; we merely posit ID and some teleology, without details.)

Occam’s Razor merely assigns probability, not certitude.

6

The spiritual experience is not hardwired to the brain. NDEers frequently leave their bodies and move to other locations, when they are revived, they accurately describe the happenings at these locations.

I will leave you a link, but if you want to know about NDEs, reading a hundred of two of them is necessary. Slowly more researchers are convinced, but it will take more time and lots of research.

http://www.aleroy.com/FAQz18.htm

I know most people today will not read more than one page of something they don’t believe, so the link above is the shortest page to some NDE knowledge.
There are some links in it also. If you really want to know where NDEers are coming from read the whole FAQ section. Most of the standard arguments are covered there. Don’t forget, reading actual NDEs is the path to learning about them.

As least read about Pam Reynolds, if you are not interested in NDEs after that, better to just forget the subject and wait until you hear about it in the media.

7

Ignore the Lekatt, he’s not useful.

Insofar as the teleogical universe: Sure, but how can you tell?
Science, unfortunately, only answers questions of fact, not faith. If something happens which has immaterial effects, but is mechanically similar to something which has no immaterial effects, there is no difference between the effects.

In short, the question is outside the boundaries of fact, and within the boundaries of faith.

8

Ignore the E-Sabbath, he has no knowledge of NDEs.

Really now, who cares what science thinks – why don’t we just pursue truth.

9

Sure, sure. What methods would you like to use to ascertain what the truth is?

10

Methods? We don’t need no stinkin’ methods. We know the truth when we see it. :rolleyes:

11

David is right, we will know the truth when we see it.

Bur you have to dig thought a lot of BS to get there.

12

David is right, we will know the truth when we see it.

But we have to dig though a lot of BS to get there.

Study everything, learn all you can about everything.

But most of all, study completely those things you don’t believe.

13

So, how do I reconcile this with the fact that when I look at the scientific method the truth I see is that it’s a great way to ascertain truth?

14

I don’t believe that a diet of consisting solely of Orioe Cookies and banana milkshakes is good for ultramarathoners. How completely should we study that? Or should we give it any shrift at all?

15

A measuring tape is a great way to find the truth of the length of a 2x4.
But it won’t tell you how many gallons of water are in your bathtub.

No one measurement, or group of measurments, will suffice to find truth in all situations. But that is what science tries to do. Lets look at the problem of consciousness, or psyche, or mind, or soul, or spirit, whatever you wish to call it.

Consciousness is who you are, and science says it resides in the brain.
OK. if consciousness resides in the brain then it must be biological, and die when the brain dies. So we look at the brain and find all the brain cells look pretty much alike. It seems that “memory” would take up a lot of brain space, but we can’t find it anywhere, what color is memory, do we look for red for memory, green for thoughts, where are the thoughts. Well we have looked at the brain and can’t seem to find consciousness anywhere in it.

So, we just assume it’s there, but we can’t see it. Maybe brain mapping will tell us where it is, and scientists start mapping the brain. A problem arises, the maps don’t match, and when a portion of the brain is damaged, another portion takes over to continue the function. How does the brain do that.

http://www.aleroy.com/info02.htm

At this point science could have investigated this “thing” a great many people called “spirit.” But instead the heads of science say “there is no such thing as spirit, if science can’t find it, it just doesn’t exst.”

This goes on for years, decades of years, with scientists telling everyone that consciousness resides in the brain even though they have no hard proof of it.
Scientists consider this ok since it is their best theory. They make lots of predictions, such as the mentally ill will be cured, depression will be cured, even that people can learn by receiving data directly to the brain. The fact that none of this happens doesn’t deter them, or cause them to look elsewhere. They really believe they have the perfect method.
Enter the near death experience. Surgeons and medical docs begin to notice their patients telling strange stories when they were revived from clinical death. One doctor Raymond Moody decided to study this strange phenomenon with the permssion of the docs and hospital he worked at. When he completed the study and published it in a book, his peers were outraged and kept him from ever working as a Psychiatrist usually does for the rest of his life. Thanks for not honoring the permission.

Elisabeth Keubler-Ross spent her whole life studing death and dying. She came to the same conclusion that Dr. Moody did. Spirit does exist.

I think Pam Reynolds will become the benchmark of near death experiences. Here is a event that was experimental surgery. It was monitored and taped with every modern device of medicine.

http://www.bibleprobe.com/pamreynolds.htm

You will also find Pam Reynolds discussed in the link I provided in a earlier post.

To cut to the chase you will find all the questions about where, what and how of the consciousness answered in near death experiences.

It is simple true that we are spiritual in nature, something known from the caveman days, hardly any news.

I will leave you with one more link to a NDE on my site, and incourage you learn about this thing called spirit.

http://www.aleroy.com/FAQz05.htm

If you are terribly offended by the knowledge in this post just pass it by. It will probably catch up with you before your life has passed.

16

Well, it had better get a move on.

17

That’s funny. :smiley:

18

Sure it will. You just have to get the measurements, then find the volume. Unless you want a really precise measurement, assuming a rectangular solid and that the relationship that 1 cc=1 mL holds true enough for your temperature and pressure, I can get it within a gallon with three measurements and a couple calculations.

19

And this proves that science will always win over pseudoscience because pseudoscience is stupid. :slight_smile:

20

That would be hearsay and wishful thinking.