Astral Projection

[lekatt]

@Epimetheus

I believe that is the fourth time in this thread lekatt has placed that link up as evidence. That is the fourth time somebody pointed out that it is not a study, and the fourth time that it has been said that it is not conclusive proof of NDEs. Yet letkatt put is up and once again states that his points have gone unanswered. :smack:

I want to thank you for your’s and other’s opinions on my cites, I posted enough of them for at least one to qualify as a study or whatever. I believe them all to be valid and backed up by members of the scientific community.

But you see us scientists just can’t take personal opinions to mean anything. You don’t accept mine and I don’t accept yours. What I have been asking for is your cites and studies proving mine wrong.

I think that is a valid request and a common one on this board.

Now I have not received any such cites or studies, so pleas don’t post your same opinions over and over as they are invalid. Just show me the evidence.

Love

[SnakeSpirit]

@Abe

You suggest that you have to repeat yourself in harsh and forceful manner because some people are not getting it; is it possible that some of us do get it, but you don’t? Without any insult intended, I suspect it is the latter.

No insult taken, Abe, but that’s not what I suggested.

@Abe

The closest I can recall to blasting in the last pages is you having a go at a couple people for reasons that are still not obvious.

The reasons were stated, and were patently obvious to any reasonable reader.

@Abe

Heh, take it to the pit where this heroic posturing and personal discussions really belong. This thread is already way too long as a result of poor debating skills, immunity to arguments, and pathological equivocation.

I agree, and guess what? All three sides of this argument are guilty. Both you and I seem to have the need to get the ‘last word’ in. In my case because I feel I’m being misrepresented! Well, I’ll let you win Abe, you can have the last word as long as you don’t misrepresent me.

**lekatt ** will go away if we ignore him. As long as you keep answering his posts with rebuttals, he will come back again with yet another repetitive post. There’s where ‘having the last word’ gets us…

“An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.” Mohandas Gandhi

There’s been a lot of good debate on this thread, and there’s been a lot of… uh… unnecessary posts, too. And now we’re not even talking about astral projection any more. Time to let it die, I think.

Bye bye

S

leaving for a kinder, gentler thread…

[Filli]

@lambchops

If you want some reputable papers from a respected source about the Big Bang, the formation of the Earth and the solar system, trythe ‘astronomy’ collectiom from Science magazine. 126 pages of scientific articles and peer-reviewed papers on planetary formation, dark matter and yes, the Big Bang. They’re often suitable for laymen, too.

Sorry for my earlier rudeness.
I browsed the above mentioned site for an hour and found nothing that said “The Big Bang is a Fact.” Did you purposely send me on a wild-goose-chase? I don’t have time for that sort of behaviour.
If you are Joshua, and sent me emails, although the site said “Big Bang is a Fact,” it wasnt sponsored by any university or other reputable scientific community, so I doubt the content. Even I could create a web site, call myself a doctor and post whatever I wanted. Doesn’t mean it’s any more than opinion.

Frankly, at this point I don’t even care. Fine, I’ll agree with anything:
The Big Bang is a Fact, our souls live after we die, we can trip around in our dreams, and James Randi is the new messiah.

But what does this have to do with astral projection??? Aren’t we supposed to stay on topic? I’m new here, and this is not setting a very good example.

[Atticus_Finch]

@Filli

Sorry for my earlier rudeness.
I browsed the above mentioned site for an hour and found nothing that said “The Big Bang is a Fact.” Did you purposely send me on a wild-goose-chase? I don’t have time for that sort of behaviour.
If you are Joshua, and sent me emails, although the site said “Big Bang is a Fact,” it wasnt sponsored by any university or other reputable scientific community, so I doubt the content. Even I could create a web site, call myself a doctor and post whatever I wanted. Doesn’t mean it’s any more than opinion.

If you couldn’t find anything in Science magazine supporting the Big Bang, you’re not looking very hard. My point is that it is accepted as scientific fact nowadays and is the basis for heaps of further work. While you may not find an article called “The Big Bang is a Fact”, since we’ve moved far beyond this, you will find articles like this one, which discusses the fairly recent proof for an expanding universe. That is, a further model with a lot of proof, which necessarily relies on the Big Bang as undisputed fact.

If Science magazine doesn’t suit you, and you want to know more about the Big Bang, why don’t you buy / borrow something by Stephen Hawking - surely you’d accept his expertise on the matter.

You’re right that this is off-topic, so let’s leave it here and let this thread die. This particular detour occurred after lekatt said something along the lines of “noone knows where the world came from”, and when I answered that question, asked something like “and what was before that?”. Then someone (Snakespirit) said “The Big Bang is only a theory”, which most scientists would say is incorrect.

If you want to discuss the Big Bang as theory vs Big Bang as fact, please do. Start a new GD thread and I’ll come argue with you. But let’s let this thread die a natural death.

[I_Love_Me_Vol.I]

Death is a one-way trip.

You can’t die and then come back to life because if you “come back to life” you were never dead in the first place. You might have been near death, you might have been VERY near death. Your heart may have stopped; it may have stopped for a really long time. Your brain may be showing little or no activity on the most sensitive monitors now in existence. Your body temperature may have dropped to 43 degrees F. Still, you weren’t dead. Because if you WERE dead, you couldn’t become alive again later.

The number one indication of death is permanent cessation of life.

Isn’t that why NDE’s are called “NEAR Death Experiences” instead of “AFTER Death Experiences”? People who experience them are only NEAR death, they haven’t actually died.

So it is easy to see that there is **no possible way ** for anyone to speak of what happens after death because–by definition–after you die you can not and will not ever speak again. {Death is defined as – the termination of life.}

[Musicat]

@I Love Me

Death is a one-way trip… {Death is defined as – the termination of life.}

Philosophically speaking, AND ONLY PHILOSOPHICALLY, I see no reason why death must be terminal.

IIRC, there are at least two examples in the bible of resurrection after death (Lazarus and Jesus). Gerald LaRue, a biblical scholar, once told me it was considered a common occurence in those days, and no big whoop. :rolleyes:

Reincarnation is one philosophy that assumes death is, as Walt Kelly once said, “nohow permanent, Son.”

The belief in an afterlife, an integral part of major religions, is based on the premise that death is not final, or that some part of the being continues beyond that event. IF that part includes sensory apparatus, why couldn’t it observe and report events?

Personally, I think this is total, unadulterated, wishful-thinking, absolute bullshit. But that’s just because I like a little more proof than just a tale twice told.

[Abe]

@Snakespirit

**lekatt ** will go away if we ignore him. As long as you keep answering his posts with rebuttals, he will come back again with yet another repetitive post.

You’re still relatively new to these boards and may not have experienced enough of Lekatt, but his standard practice is to keep coming back until he has either had the last (unsupported) word on the supernatural or the thread is closed. Even after he leaves in a huff, which happens in most of the threads he appears in, he routinely comes back to present his unsupported prattle and claim that he wins the arguments.

There’s been a lot of good debate on this thread, and there’s been a lot of… uh… unnecessary posts, too. And now we’re not even talking about astral projection any more. Time to let it die, I think.

It’s true. But false and unsupported assertions do irritate many of us, and we aren’t really prepared to let such smelly ordure as his claims stand after a number of us worked so hard to exercise reason and clean up the mess people like Lekatt and others made.

Lekatt, if you honestly think your arguments have not been slammed down in this thread and the others you have “argued” (for lack of a better word) in, you either aren’t reading the responses people give you or they are simply beyond your understanding.

[lekatt]

@Abe

You’re still relatively new to these boards and may not have experienced enough of Lekatt, but his standard practice is to keep coming back until he has either had the last (unsupported) word on the supernatural or the thread is closed. Even after he leaves in a huff, which happens in most of the threads he appears in, he routinely comes back to present his unsupported prattle and claim that he wins the arguments.

It’s true. But false and unsupported assertions do irritate many of us, and we aren’t really prepared to let such smelly ordure as his claims stand after a number of us worked so hard to exercise reason and clean up the mess people like Lekatt and others made.

Lekatt, if you honestly think your arguments have not been slammed down in this thread and the others you have “argued” (for lack of a better word) in, you either aren’t reading the responses people give you or they are simply beyond your understanding.

I am reading the responses just fine. They consist of opinions, theories, and conjectures, when I ask for cites of studies and evidence I get none. You are completely out of line.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

I have shown a great deal of solid evidence that consciousness continues after the death of the body, stating man is spiritual in nature.

You are defending the notion that a biological organ (the brain) creates in some manner probably the most complicated thing in existence, the human personality. I don’t think this is true, and have furnished evidence to the contrary.

Now I ask you again, please furnish me evidence in favor of the brain creating mind, personality, psyche, or whatever word you wish to call yourself.

If you can’t or don’t show this proof, then you are the one spouting false and unsupported claims, not me.

Is this not clear enough for you to understand?

Love

[Czarcasm]

Understand this.
Anecdotes are not evidence.
Anecdotes are not studies, no matter how many times you present them.
You did NOT have an NDE, you had a bad dream.
I repeat-according to the oft repeated recital of your own personal anecdote, you did NOT have an NDE, you had a bad dream.
Understand that, if you are not near death when you have an “experience”, you CANNOT call it a “Near Death Experience”.
Period.
End of story.
Nothing to debate.

[I_Love_Me_Vol.I]

@Musicat

Philosophically speaking, AND ONLY PHILOSOPHICALLY, I see no reason why death must be terminal.

IIRC, there are at least two examples in the bible of resurrection after death (Lazarus and Jesus). Gerald LaRue, a biblical scholar, once told me it was considered a common occurence in those days, and no big whoop. :rolleyes:

Reincarnation is one philosophy that assumes death is, as Walt Kelly once said, “nohow permanent, Son.”

Philosopically speaking, “anything’s possible.” But death IS terminal. That is what is IS by definition. It is the END. You don’t come back from it or it ain’t death!!!

Lazarus and the Bible? I think we can rule out that stuff as allegory at best.

As for reincarnation, If such phenomena did exist, I submit that it would still entail the **permanent death ** of one corporal being. However, some memories or soul or what have you would “re-emerge” in another, seperate being at some later date. This is not the same as someone flat-lining for 15 minutes and then being resuscitated.

[lekatt]

@Czarcasm

Understand this.
Anecdotes are not evidence.
Anecdotes are not studies, no matter how many times you present them.
You did NOT have an NDE, you had a bad dream.
I repeat-according to the oft repeated recital of your own personal anecdote, you did NOT have an NDE, you had a bad dream.
Understand that, if you are not near death when you have an “experience”, you CANNOT call it a “Near Death Experience”.
Period.
End of story.
Nothing to debate.

Calm down now, don’t want you to pop something.

Since there is no honest way you can say what my experience was, I will just post the link to them, I have had multiple experiences, and let others decide for themselves.

http://www.aleroy.com/Ndee.htm

As for ancedotes, while science may have its dubious reasons for discounting their verity, in the real world that does not happen. It would be impossible to check out every thing everyone said to you doing the course of a day’s activity.
In life threatening situations such as war it would be disasterous and cause lives not to act immediately on the personal experience of the lookouts having faith they are correct.

Some posters say that ancedotes, being personal, are not valid because they are personal. But a greater understanding of life will show everything we experience is personal. It is the only way we can move through this world. A hundred people can look into a forest and write down what they saw. Not a single account will be identical to any other. That is the real world as we know it, and I have reason to believe we don’t really know it very well.

Just calm down, you are not being threatened.

Love

[lekatt]

@I Love Me

Philosopically speaking, “anything’s possible.” But death IS terminal. That is what is IS by definition. It is the END. You don’t come back from it or it ain’t death!!!

Lazarus and the Bible? I think we can rule out that stuff as allegory at best.

As for reincarnation, If such phenomena did exist, I submit that it would still entail the **permanent death ** of one corporal being. However, some memories or soul or what have you would “re-emerge” in another, seperate being at some later date. This is not the same as someone flat-lining for 15 minutes and then being resuscitated.

The big debate is whether our brains create our consciousness, or is our consciousness separate from our brain and therefore lives on after the death of our bodies.

Veridical Near Death Experiences indicate we are separate from our brains and will continue to live after our bodies die.

I can’t go into great detail on this, and suggest you spend some time researching NDEs if you are really interested.

Incidentally, science has not been able to show the brain creating consciousness.

Just think for a moment about what consciousness really is – it is you. Your personality, memory, beliefs, thought process, morality, etc. In the study of the brain there has been no indication that any of this is stored there. The only thing science does is to probe the brain with electricity, etc. which will produce certain experiences. But on follow up the experience can not be found in the brain.

This is somewhat like probing a TV tuner and receving different channels. It does not mean the channels are stored within the TV.

It is a fascinating study, just don’t assume anything. Look for yourself and decide for yourself.

Love

[Czarcasm]

I have read your links over and over again. You had a bad day, you had a bad dream.
Period.
You did not have an NDE. This isn’t a matter of opinion, and there is nothing to debate. Please do not post that link again unless someone starts yet another thread on NDEs. Please do not make the claim that you have had an NDE unless you can show us that you were Near Death when you had your Experience.
Make note of what the N, the D and the E stand for, and see that your E was not ND.
Might I suggest that the next time you have an E, and there is not an accompaning ND, you take some antacid and sleep it off.

[Musicat]

@lekatt

A hundred people can look into a forest and write down what they saw. Not a single account will be identical to any other.

I couldn’t have said it better myself. This is EXACTLY why anecdotes have no validity as serious evidence.

[lekatt]

@Musicat

I couldn’t have said it better myself. This is EXACTLY why anecdotes have no validity as serious evidence.

I understand your reasoning, but believe it to be faulty, because that’s all we have to work with. There is no such thing as objective reasoning. We can only reason through the filters of our knowledge. This knowledge will be different in every single person.

I remember reading about a study that showed what a scientist brought to the lab in terms of expectations had an effect on his experiments. In other words no two studies of the same subject are identical either.

We don’t live in a mechanical world, our bodies are not machines. We deal with the real world as best we can. To throw a blanket over all personal experiences and say they are not valid until proven valid by scientific methods smacks of deception designed to control the beliefs of others. I will decide for myself which experiences are believable and which are not. Yes, I know that is not scientific, but science is not the final authority in my life, neither is religion.

Backing up a bit, we might say that while there are no two identical experiences, there are similarities in experiences that we can agree on. For instance, we might agree, while looking into a forest, that there are a lot of trees. By coming to this agreement a majority of the experiencers could declare a forest contains a lot of trees is a valid statement.

This is more like real life and if used on near death experiences would show them valid.

I know you will not agree, it is ok, there are plenty that do agree. There are approx. 8 times as many people believe in an after life than don’t They reach their belief by either being taught to believe it, or by having a personal spiritual experience. My best guess is that only about 25 percent have actually had a spiritual experience.

We could debate for hours, it is very intesting.

But on this board one must wait for the yelling to quiet, the smoke to clear, and the bullshit to be shoveled out, before meaningful debate can begin.

Love

[lekatt]

@Czarcasm

I have read your links over and over again. You had a bad day, you had a bad dream.
Period.
You did not have an NDE. This isn’t a matter of opinion, and there is nothing to debate. Please do not post that link again unless someone starts yet another thread on NDEs. Please do not make the claim that you have had an NDE unless you can show us that you were Near Death when you had your Experience.
Make note of what the N, the D and the E stand for, and see that your E was not ND.
Might I suggest that the next time you have an E, and there is not an accompaning ND, you take some antacid and sleep it off.

Oh, dear, I guess you ignored the part where I say I woke up. Too bad. I did not provide the link for you, but for others who wished to read about it.

My experience qualifies as a valid NDE because of the conversation concerning death. I was ask if I wanted to continue or not. I choose to continue living. That makes it an NDE, by research standards.

It doesn’t have to satisfy your definition, you are not a researcher, and I will continue to post links when I feel they will add to the debate.
If you are trying to control my contributions to this board, just say so.

Sticking your head in the sand, or going into denial will not solve any problems.

If you have some proof or even good evidence that I was not near death in my experience, now is the time for you to show it, or keep your teeth close together.

Love

[Abe]

Lekatt, studies were cited. Evidence was reviewed. Opinions were considered. Logic was exercised. Arguments were expounded. Citations were provided. You on the other hand have merely waved anecdotes around and launched a number of extremely poorly informed rants against methods and disciplines about which you exhibit not the least understanding or knowledge. Your whine that no one has presented any evidence is simply more of your argument avoidance technique and may not be reconciled with the contents of this thread and of most of the other threads in which you have made a similarly weak arguments.

And throughout this you still don’t seem to understand the inadmissibility of anecdotes as supporting evidence for extraordinary claims in a formal system of knowledge.

Why not end this experience with the conclusion that you were not able to demonstrate any of the phenomena you claim, but that your faith in them remains unshaken? You are accomplishing nothing in your or your cause’s favour here.

[lekatt]

@Abe

Lekatt, studies were cited. Evidence was reviewed. Opinions were considered. Logic was exercised. Arguments were expounded. Citations were provided. You on the other hand have merely waved anecdotes around and launched a number of extremely poorly informed rants against methods and disciplines about which you exhibit not the least understanding or knowledge. Your whine that no one has presented any evidence is simply more of your argument avoidance technique and may not be reconciled with the contents of this thread and of most of the other threads in which you have made a similarly weak arguments.

And throughout this you still don’t seem to understand the inadmissibility of anecdotes as supporting evidence for extraordinary claims in a formal system of knowledge.

Why not end this experience with the conclusion that you were not able to demonstrate any of the phenomena you claim, but that your faith in them remains unshaken? You are accomplishing nothing in your or your cause’s favour here.

Abe, I think you are not serious. Either that, or you are talking about another thread, maybe another world. The claims I made were backed up by studies, you have yet to show anything to back up yours.

If you are so sure you are correct, how about doing the normal thing – proving it.
This post of yours is scary its so far from reality as not to really mean anything.

Make me happy, show me how your brain created you. I want proof, at least evidence, not conjectures. Where’s the beef.

Love

[SnakeSpirit]

@lekatt

This is somewhat like probing a TV tuner and receving different channels. It does not mean the channels are stored within the TV.

ROTFL!

lekatt, I don’t think you are making or will make any headway here, but I got to admire that analogy! A true work of art.

S

[lekatt]

@Snakespirit

ROTFL!

lekatt, I don’t think you are making or will make any headway here, but I got to admire that analogy! A true work of art.

S

Thank you.

I first wrote that on my site back in 2001.
A few weeks ago I noticed one of the doctors in NDE research using it also.
I was very pleased.

Thanks again

Love