Im disappointed that everybody ignored my two previous replies.
I’m the only one with a logical explanation.
Ignoring things in Great Debates generally means that no one found any way to put you down.
Revel in being ignored! It means you made sense!
SnakeSpirit said:
but it is…
Assuming “astral projection” is the same as “out of body experience” (and I’m betting dollars to donuts that you’ll say it isn’t), the mechanism, or at least * a* mechanism has been found, and you’re not gonna like it. I don’t have a cite immediately to hand, but a few months ago, there was a paper written by some neurologists who corellated OOBEs with brain function and found a specific brain region which they felt responsible. By implanting electrodes, they could trigger out of body experiences at will. Case closed. Thank you for coming; please play again.
I feel bad for not having a cite; I will try to dig it up when I get back to work on Monday (I know where to look), but are there any other Dopers (QED perhaps?) who can back me up in the interim?
Yeah, ok. You might want to, you know, actually read his posts before you go slapping him on the back. Go on, I’ll wait while you catch up.
Here, from CNN.
go HERE
I would just point out that Nature, being one of the pre-eminent peer-reviewed scientific journals, carries a bit more oomph than some of the web sites cited by some of our more…um…gullible posters.
I would be interested in that cite bizzwire: Is the scientist you are referring to Dr. Michael Persinger? I have heard of him and his hypothesis’, though I have not heard any recent news of him directly stimulating an area of the brain. IIRC his studies dealt with magnetism and its effects on the temporal lobes.
Upon looking I cannot find anything directly, though I do have to admit such stimulations of the brain could have some far reaching possiblities. More than just disproving AP.
LOL, thanks!
Dammit QED, thanks for stealing my thunder!!! Shouldn’t you be in bed or something?
Epimethius:
The original article was authored by Dr. Olaf Blanke:
Blanke, O., Ortigue, S., Landis, T., Seeck, M. Stimulating own-body perceptions. Nature, 419, 269 - 270, (2002)
You made this post 13 minutes after mine. Hardly enough time to follow 7 links and read the material. I think you should read the links before you comment.
Love
(taken slightly out of context by me)
I have no reason to believe that’s not true. I don’t think there is a giant space dragon on the moon but since I’ve never been there I can’t be 100% sure so I’ll just say ‘there probably isn’t, but there might be, for all I know’.
Have you ever considered that research on AP and the rest of the abbreviations might help us understand consciousness better, or eventually prove your point of AP being BS?
Don’t make me post another John Stuart Mill Quote now, y’hear?
A few remarks on brain stimulation: If you poked a bee hive with an electric prod and a thousand bees came out would you believe the hive created the bees.
If you changed the TV channel and a different picture appeared would that prove the picture was held within the TV.
If Brain stimulation causes spiritual experiences then so does auto accidents, heart attacks, overdoses and such.
Brain stimulation does not prove the brain and the mind, psyche, spirit are the same.
Yes, I will readily admit it is possible to cause the spirit to leave the body with electrical shock, drugs, and even the a centrifuge. Anything that will kill the body or take it to the threshhold of death will cause the spirit to leave the body. This information is not new to near death experience research. Brain mapping is really nonexistant by the admission of those that do it.
http://www.aleroy.com/info02.htm
If you wish to prove the brain creates the “mind” and the mind dies when the brain does, you will have to find evidence of the mind in biological form within the brain. I can’t see any other way to do it, but would welcome comments to the contrary.
Now, finally, no evidence of such “mind” has ever been found in the brain.
Read the link I provided earlier and this will be covered. Science has no, nada, proof or even any evidence that the brain creates the mind. There is a ton of evidence, such as near death experiences, that says it don’t.
Love
Lekatt
If you poked a behive with a stick you’d get the same result. You *could * believe that the stick created the bees, but you’d have to be very, very stupid to think so.
Well, except that we’ve elsewhere observed the reproduction of bees, knowing that bees come from bees, not the hive. Just like we’ve elsewhere observed that thoughts, memory and stimuli can be provoked by electrical stimuli in the brain, and that, indeed, the brain itself is merely a collection of electo-chemical reactions.
Hell, all this does is show exactly how the AP hallucination is produced. It’s up to believer to demonstrate that AP isn’t just yet another hallucination.
I think your answer is good but interpretation falted.
Poking a bee hive produces bees, and we know where bees come from – other bees. Poking a brain to produce thoughts doesn’t tell us where the thoughts come from or what they are. One question I like to ask is: How do we know the signals we pick up on the brain are really coming from the brain, afterall they may be going to the brain from another source like spirit?
Science has no proof that the brain is anything other than a collection of brain cells, a biological organ. If you wish to say the brain is a collection of electo-chemical reactions then what causes these reactions and how. Thought can’t because they are? thought, right.
What you describe might have given rise to the strong “I” theory. It states there is an electical type of program in the brain something like a computer has, and if you could move the program from one brain to another, one person would change into another, or at least their personality.
These theories are fun to kick around but ignore the evidence, that we can live without our brains. Near death experience research has nailed this down pretty solid.
Some will study the material and learn and others will close their minds, such is life, but truth remains truth. When you can prove to me I am my brain I will believe you, until then the evidence all points to the contrary.
Love
No, we can’t. This is why beheaded humans don’t run around afterwards. Despite your assertion to the contrary, there are no surgical procedures during which zero brain activity can be recorded for any extended period of time, but the patient survives afterwards. I challenge you to find one substantiated, clinically-documented instance to the contrary.
Drugs are HARDLY the “threshhold of death”. Drugs alter the brain chemistry to produce near-death experiences, not almost kill you.
What this comes down to is people not wanting to admit to their own fragile, human existence. Sorry people, souls don’t exist. EVERYTHING we are, EVERYTHING we believe, our dreams, our ambitions, our personality, our perceptions, are contained in the brain.
People who suffer brain damage have profound personality changes.
hey, Lekatt:
I seem to remember the OP being somewhat related to Astral Projection. I (and QED) cited a quantitative, reproducible, peer-reviewed source which suggests that this is a neurophysiological phenomenon and does not need involve “spirit,” “psyche,” DMT, or any other open-ended mumbo jumbo.
Please do not co-opt this thread with yet another of your monomaniacal “near-death experience” diatribes. Honestly, it’s been done to death. (Or shall I say, near-death? )
So stop being such a Buttinski. If you have something to add to the conversation vis-a-vis AP, fine. Otherwise, please do not hijack this thread.
DMT isn’t “open-ended mumbo jumbo”. It’s just a natural drug, produced by the brain, that produces profound changes in consciousness. Simple.
Well, SOME of us can. And do.