At what age did Virgin Mary die?

Jesus had at least three sisters, not two:

55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him.
But Jesus said to them, “Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor.”"–Matthew 13:55-57

If He had only two sisters, they would have said “aren’t both his sisters with us.” The use of the word “all” denotes more than two.

**2. Joseph, believed to have been substantially older than Mary, was a widower, with children from his first marriage. (The problem here is that the inheritance of the Kingship would pass to James, his eldest son, not to Jesus.)
**

Why would this have been a problem?

God made it pretty clear that the Messiah was to be born of Mary and His name would be Jesus. If James was the son of Joseph from another marriage (which he wasn’t), his status as firstborn would have been irrelevant, not to mention that James was a sinner.

God is under no obligation to bless a firstborn He never promised. This is why Ishmael, while blessed, did not receive “THE” blessing even though he was “first.”

As a sidenote, if the Messiah were to be tempted in all ways that man is tempted, wouldn’t that have HAD to include the temptation to kill one of your siblings? :slight_smile:

But OT prophecy foretells the Messiah as being a direct lineal descendant of David. James would satisfy that criterion – but Jesus wouldn’t, not unless he were Joseph’s son. (There’s a tradition that Mary was also of David’s line, but there’s no scriptural support for that.)

On the subject of the virgin birth – from Asimov’s Guide to the Bible: Volume 2, the New Testament (Doubleday, 1969), pp. 119-120, chapter on Matthew:

Just an observation here. If Mary had remained a virgin until her death, then that means that her husband Joeseph had voluntarily decided never to have sex with her. If this was known to be the case at the time the Gospels were written, doesn’t it seem odd that something this unusual just wasn’t seen as important enough to mention? Particularly given the Gospel writers considered it significant enough to mention the brothers and sisters of Jesus?

Well, tradition has it that Joseph was an old man at the time of his marriage to the Theotokos, and died a few years later, so the fact that he never consummated the marriage wouldn’t have been terribly unusual.

All of this discussion of virgin birth and birth order is as maybe in this thread. The question is as to if and when Mary died. Frankly, if we’re only going to go on the Bible (Abbie, et al.) I don’t see them saying all that much on point. All you’re doing is saying that you don’t believe the Catholic line, which really doesn’t advance the question of what groups believe what, which is the only point of the OP subject to rational discussion, which is the purpose of GQ.

[mild ad-hominem]Honestly, you’d thing someone with a background in law would be a better rhetor[/mild ad-hominem]

It helps if you read the posts. Note what I said "Not being an expert on Greek/Latin or Aramaic, I will just have to conced to the experts who have said that the words used to designate James (for example) as Jesus’s “brother” mean exactly that “brother”. Poly doesn’t question that the words used mean exactly that- no one does. Of course, it is true that “brethren” was also sometimes applied to a group of people very close to you- Jesus called his Apostles “brethren” I think once. But- none of them were known for decades after His death as “xxxx the Brother of Jesus” as James was.

Right:
What are the various beliefs, and what are the arguments for each, is factually answerable.
Which belief is right and which argument is valid, is not.

Exactly what is this tradition? And does this tradition actually have a basis on the text of the Bible? Hmm…

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library/inftoma.htm

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas
Greek Text A

“XIX. 1 And when he was twelve years old his parents went according to the custom unto Jerusalem to the feast of the passover with their company: and after the passover they returned to go unto their house.”

Yes, I am quite aware of the fact this isn’t considered canonical. In fact, let’s assume it is just somebody’s fictional account of the youth of Jesus. However, if someone were to invent a fictional account of the early life of Jesus, would it not make sense to write it is such a way that the readers would think it is at least plausible? This would mean that when this was written, it must have been commonly thought by the Christians that Joseph didn’t die shortly after Jesus was born. This tale has Joseph alive at the time Jesus was 12.

And here:

Luk 2:39 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.

Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Luk 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.

Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

Luke clearly states Joseph was alive when Jesus was 12. And, that Joseph was capable of travel to Jerusalem every year means he was hardly an invalid. Certainly he would have been capable of consumating the marriage.

If you’ve been paying attention to any of these threads about Orthodox and Catholic beliefs, you’d know that our traditions are not limited to the Bible.

First, I would have no problem stretching “a few years” to 12. Secondly, as I mentioned, Joseph was an old man, and old men aren’t traditionally known for their sexual vigour. Thirdly, Joseph already had children from a previous marriage, and so would have already fulfilled the Jewish laws to produce offspring. Fourthly, Church tradition has it that Joseph never had any intention of consummating his marriage with the Theotokos, but was merely providing her with a home. From the previously mentioned Protoevangelium of James (which, although apocryphal, reflects the Church’s traditions about the life of the Theotokos):

Joseph certainly had enough vigour that he was able to travel to Jerusalem annually with his family. Older men in decent health who are married ordinarily do have sex with their wife occasionally. That there is no mention of Joseph in the Bible at the time of the ministry of Jesus (usually thought to be around when he was 30-33 years old) would tend to suggest that he had died sometime before then, but after Jesus was 12. Joseph of course could have voluntarily not had sex with Mary. I just find it curious this isn’t mentioned at all in the canonical texts.

Ah, but the tradition, IIRC, is this. Joseph was a widower with several sons and daughters. He married Mary primarily to provide a stepmother to his family. I’m no expert, but it wouldn’t astonish me to find that such a pragmatic decision wouldn’t have been unusual in first-century Palestine.

If Joseph had been of a higher socio-economic status he might have hired a housekeeper/nurse to help raise his children, but he wasn’t; he married one instead.

He didn’t want any more children and, given the presumably primitive nature of contraceptive techniques at the time, and the possibility that he was already fairly old, and the nature of his marriage with Mary, is non-consummation entirely implausible? It might be quite a rational strategy.

Of course, none of that is supported by scripture, but it isn’t contradicted by it either, except possibly by the passage which describes the other children of Joseph as the brothers and sisters of Jesus. Nothing about half-brothers and half-sisters, which (overlooking for the moment the virgin birth) is how they would have been regarded.

This brings me to Dr Deth’s statement that “I will just have to conced to the experts who have said that the words used to designate James (for example) as Jesus’s “brother” mean exactly that “brother”. There is no scriptural reason to suppose that they were anything else. There is no mention that they are Jeusus “half-brothers” or cousins or anything but full siblings, born of Joseph & Mary.” I’m not in a position to contradict this, but I do question it. In our own society, the term “brother” would frequently be used of a half-brother, except where the half-blood nature of the relationship is particularly material to the point being made. Are the experts saying that that didn’t happen in New Testament Greek? Are the experts unanimous on this point? Are they saying that the term “brother”, in the context, couldn’t refer to a half-brother? Or merely that there’s nothing in the text itself to suggest that it did?

What puzzles me is that the doctrine of perpetual virginity is defined in the sixth century. Doctrines tend to be defined only when they are disputed, which suggests that it had been widely believed before it was defined (and yBeaf’s cites from Wikipedia appear to confirm this; the Protoevangium of James was probably written between 120 and 150). And for the next thousand or so years after Ephesus the entire church is pretty unanimous in accepting it; it doesn’t seem to be seriously challenged until some time after the Protestant reformation.

All this time, the Gospels were there to read, and those who believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity knew perfectly well that the Gospels referred to Jesus’ brothers and sisters. At least in the earlier part of the this period, most of them were themselves Greek speakers, so they knew what “brothers” and “sisters” meant, or could mean, in the context. They obviously didn’t see the text as inconsistent with a belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity (unless you’re going to argue that they attached no value to the gospels).

Now, I’m willing to accept that modern scholarship has given us an understanding of New Testament Greek which is better than most of our forebears have had, and that modern scholars may say flatly that the Greek term translated as “brother” in the New Testament could not mean a half-brother. But it’s not clear to me that they are saying that. If all they are saying is that, in this instance, there is no evidence in the text itself that it does refer to a half-brother, then it doesn’t seem to me that the scripture is inconsistent with the tradition.

It then comes down to the question of scripture versus tradition. If you take the view, whether as a matter of faith or otherwise, that canonical scripture is the only acceptable source of knowledge about Jesus, then you discount the early writings and tradition, you find no positive evidence in the gospels of Mary’s perpetual virginity, you find a passage which, on one very plausible reading, is inconsistent with Mary’s perpetual virginity, and you conclude, on the balance of evidence, that Mary did not remain perpetually virgin.

But you can only do this by taking the view that tradition is so unimportant that it does not need to be explained. If you take the view that tradition has some evidential value, then an interpretation of scripture which can be reconciled with a pretty strong tradition begins to look much more attractive.

That would assume there’s a word for “both” in greek. There’s no such word in french, for instance, so you need to give the exact number or to say “all”. Even if there are only two of them.
Now, I wouldn’t know if there’s a word for “both” in greek, or whether or not “all” could apply for only two sisters in this language. What I mean is that you can’t make such precise statements about the underlying meaning of the text without being able to read it in its original language.
Similarily, the usual catholic explanation I got about these brothers is the alleged common use of the word meaning “brother” to mean also “cousins”, for instance. If you aren’t somewhat familiar with the customs and language uses in Palestine, you won’t be able to tell by yourself if the use of the same word for brother/cousin was commonplace or if this explanation is highly unlikely.
So, I would say that barring some deep and long study, your argument merely based on an english translation of a text, and without knowledge of the customs in Palestine isn’t compelling. I’ve personnally no reason to buy your rather than the catholic interpretation (actually, I believe neither, but that’s another issue entirely).

I must concede, the above is a plausible explanation as to why Mary could have remained a virgin. Clearly, the status of women at this place and time was such that if Joseph had wanted sex with her, she wouldn’t have been in a position to refuse. However, given the lack of good contraceptive technology at the time, if Joseph had decided that having more children was something undesirable, he would have had every incentive not to have sex with Mary. Is there anything in the canonical texts that Joseph was indeed a widower with children from a previous marriage? And even if there isn’t, unless the texts explicitly state that this was not the case, this can be reasonably assumed.

There’s nothing in the gospels confirming that Joseph was a widower with a family. However . . .

There is a related tradition that Joseph was much older than Mary, and there is some indirect support for this in the fact that Joseph disappears from the narrative after Jesus is 12, whereas Mary survives for at least another two decades, i.e. until after the crucifixion. This suggests that Joseph died well before Mary, which is consistent with the idea that he was considerably older than her (although, of course, that is not the only possible explanation; he could have died prematurely).

Given attitudes to marriage in first-century Palestine, I think it would be unusual for Joseph to have deferred marriage until late in his own life. Hence, if he was older than Mary, it’s not implausible that he was previously married, and having a young family would certainly provide a strong incentive to take a second wife, if widowed.

This might also explain why he agreed to marry Mary even after discovering that she was pregnant. While he didn’t particularly want another mouth to feed, he badly needed a wife and, with a existing young family and no desire to have further children, he wasn’t exactly a dream prospect in the probably fairly pragmatic marriage market of the time. It may have been Mary or no-one. (Of course, the gospels provide an alternative explanation in the form of an angel appearing in a dream and telling him to marry Mary.)

So it all hangs together. The scriptural basis for it is admittedly very thin, but I’m not persuaded by Abbie and Dr Deth that the scriptures are inconsistent with this version either.

If one doesn’t accept the gospels as true, then the reasonable explanation is that Joseph was the father of Jesus, and the gospels simply changed history to fit the propaganda. As for what b]Abbie** and Dr Deth have suggested, what is needed here is someone that is very familiar with the original languages that the scriptures were written in that could answer whether the terms translated as “brother” and “sister” in those languages they could have also meant a half-brother, step-sister or cousin. (The Bible does say Jesus was the son of God, and thus they would have been step-brothers or step-sisters. However, the creators of the language surely wouldn’t have anticipated a virgin birth of the son of God such there would be a specific term for such other siblings.) Given that according to scripture that the father of Jesus was God, it isn’t like there Jesus’ real father was around that would object to Joseph calling Jesus as being his own son. Which Joseph would have had to do, given that in Jesus’ childhood he couldn’t have been telling people in town that Jesus wasn’t his son, but the son of God. He’d need to wait until after Jesus started his ministry and said such.

Again, I can’t read the Gospels in any language other than English, and I am not such an expert. My brother is quite an expert. BUT from what they tell me: The term “brother” in that context could refer to a half-brother. However they did indeed have a term for “half-brother”. If- for example- in one verse- Jesus refered to them as his “brethren” and in another verse the writer refered to them as “the half-brothers and sisters of Jesus”- I could well accept that Jesus was just being a bit liberal in saying “brothers” and they really were half-siblings. But every single time (and they are several verses in at least two Gospels) no “half” is used. Nor is “half” used by Paul to refer to James- and Paul had some reason to butt heads with James as they were both jockeying for leadership (along with Peter) of the early church. Since what James had mainly going for him was the fact he was Jesus’s next-in-line sibling and thus “heir”, you might think that Paul would have casually mentioned “the half-brother of…”. Nope. The thing was- they had many verses in which to use “half-” and never did. if it had been once ot twice, well… but it was many times. And every single time no “half”. (Actually they would have said something like “James the son of Joseph by his second wife” or something")

Oh- cousins is a much bigger stretch. Half-brother just makes me say “is there any evidence they weren’t full siblings?”- asking me to accept that they used the term “brethren” to refer to “cousins” over & over is way too much. James at least would have been called “James, the Cousin of Jesus”.

It is true that since “brethren/brother” could mean half-brother (more or less as modern usage), so that the concept of Jesus’s siblings being "halves’ is not directly contradicted by the Bible. But Occams razor says they were normal siblings. There is no scriptural evidence to the contrary. You have to start making assumptions to turn them into anything but full siblings- and there is no need to make those assumptions.

Oh, and since Joseph drops out of the writings early, I’ll grant it is a not unreasonable supposition that he died not long after Jesus’s 12th birthday. However, it seems more likely that he died right before Jesus started his Ministry, as Joseph was still well-remembered then. Of course- the life expectancy of a working man wasn’t very high back then. Joseph might well have been up to a decade older that his wife, without even a raised eyebrow. Assume he was 10 years older than Mary, and he died when Jesus was 30? He’d have been something like 55, which is a pretty rich old age for a working man in that time.
The Protoevangelium of James was written at least two centuries after the death of Jesus. None that I know of accept it as canonical. Actually- most accept it as “made up stories”. :stuck_out_tongue:

The Greek word used for “all” in the verse about Jesus’ sisters is “pas.” It’s used 868 times in the New Testament. I didn’t go through all 868 verses, but the ones that I did read used the word “all” as we understand it and in the context we’re talking about: more than two things/people/etc.

Now let’s take a look at Luke:

*“5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly. 7 But they had no children, because Elizabeth was barren; and they were both well along in years.” *Luke 1:5-7

This verse is talking about Zechariah and Elizabeth, right, and how they were both righteous, etc?

The Greek word used for “both” in that verse is “amphoteros.” It is used 297 times in the New Testament, same context, yada yada yada.

So the two words have different meanings, and yes there’s a word in Greek for “both.” If Jesus had only two sisters, it’s safe to assume the word “amphoteros” would have been used in that verse instead of “pas.”

I’m not suggesting that we shouldn’t accept the Gospels as true. I’m saying that, in endeavouring to understand the Gospels, we can and should take account of what we learn from other sources, including our own reflections.

In particular, in pointing out that Joseph had pragmatic reasons for accepting Mary even though she was pregnant, I am not asserting that the Gospel account is false. Joseph may well have had a spiritual experience, which may have taken the form of a dream or may have been explained as a dream because that was as close as he, or the evangelist, could get to describing what he experienced, as a result of which he felt driven to accept Mary. Even so, he would also have been conscious of the practical pros and cons of the decision. The two explanations are not inconsistent.

The footnote to Mark 6:3 in the New American Bible has this to say

”In semitic usage the terms “brother,” “sister” are applied not only to children of the same parents, but to nephews, nieces, cousins, half-brothers, and half-sisters; cf Genesis 14:16; 29:15; Lev 10:4. While one cannot suppose that the meaning of a Greek word should be sought in the first place from Semitic usage, the Septuagint often translates the Hebrew ah by the Greek word adelphos, “brother,” as in the cited passages, a fact that may argue for a similar breadth of meaning in some New Testament passages. For instance, there is no doubt that in v 17, “brother” is used of Philip, who was actually the half-brother of Herod Antipas. On the other hand, Mark may have understood the terms literally; see also Mark 3:31-32; Matthew 12:46; 13:55-56; Luke 8:19; John 7:3, 5. The question of meaning here would not have arisen but for the faith of the church in Mary’s perpetual virginity.”

This is admittedly a Catholic source, but it does at least propose that, in a scriptural context, “brother” can refer to a half-brother. Unless there is some scholar asserting contradicting this and asseting that it cannot, I do not think we can say that scripture is inconsistent with a belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity.

You speak as though these were known facts, and not dubious (i.e., apocryphal) traditions.