Jesus as the Son of God. A question.

I believe Jesus Christ is supposed to be the Son of God according to Christian theism. It is my understanding that this ‘relationship’ is a spiritual one, rather than a divine version of the genetic human father-son relationship. Am I correct so far?

Why then do all the churches I’ve ever seen offer prayers to Jesus (or Mary, or some saint), but not to God Himself? Is it even possible that a Christian church would bypass Jesus Christ and pray to (and this is my assumption) the entity higher up on the divinity ladder?

Furthermore, why is Joseph’s role discounted where Mary’s is not? She birthed the Son of God even though she was a virgin, true, but did she actually do anything beyond that to deserve all the veneration she deserves?

I’m not a Christian, and am not very familiar with Christian thought, so please give me answers along the lines of See Spot Run. Also, I am not interested in converting to Christianity, so please don’t bother wasting your time and energy in that regard. I mean that sincerely and non-derisively.

Thank you in advance.

“…to deserve all the veneration she gets.”

I’m an atheist, but I could lob a few interpretations your way.

Mary was chosen by god to carry his divine son. That’s why she’s cool. Joseph…not so much.

Jesus is the son, but I believe it’s more like he is god himself. God chose to become mortal and experience humanity for himself, so he took human form. That form was Jesus.

God in heaven is inconceivable and unreachable from a human perspective. As humans, we can only reach the human form of god, so we pray to Jesus. Praying directly to god would be like climbing a pole outside and putting your ear to the telephone line–it is just on a whole different plane from our paltry human understanding. Jesus is the actual phone.

That’s this heathen’s understanding.

Where do you get the idea that Christians don’t pray directly to God? Who do you think “Our father, who art in heaven” is directed at?

Mary was also born without Original Sin, otherwise known as Immaculate Conception. This is also a pretty big deal, as EVERYONE has the stain of Original sin (the eating of the fruit, if I am correct), even Joseph. Besides, how often does a step-father get credit for anything? :slight_smile:

(another heathen’s 2 cents)

Off to Great Debates.

I’m not discounting the Lord’s prayer, ruadh.
What I’d like to know is why are there more churches of Jesus Christ etc than churches of God. All the churches I have ever seen have had either Jesus Christ or Mary or St.Paul or some other saint as the central deity.

So, is Jesus Christ supposed to be God himself? If yes, then why bother calling him the song of God?

Innanna, I’m afraid I don’t quite get what you mean when you say Mary was born without Original Sin. I thought Mary was a normal human being. Wouldn’t that mean she was automatically born with it?

Mary or St Paul as the central deity? Um … either you have some weird religions in Singapore :wink: or you’re labouring under some very serious misconceptions. I don’t know of any religions that treat either of them as a deity, although admittedly some schools of Catholicism can give that impression, at least where Mary is concerned.

In Catholic theology Mary was born without original sin. She was a normal human being in all other respects, though.

I’ll let someone who’s a better Catholic than I am explain the concept of the Holy Trinity …

There is no universal Christian agreement on Mary. In Catholic tradition, she was not a normal human being; she was born without Original Sin and remained perpetually virgin. In some Protestant understanding, Jesus had brothers - or, I suppose, half-brothers - that were the natural children of Mary and Joseph.

Jesus is supposed to be the Son of God, and, also, God Himself.

Jesus, as man, was an incarnation of God, one of the Holy Trinity, the three-in-one godhead that is the center of Christian theology. Christians claim to accept the commandment that says there is only one God, so there are not multiple dieties. Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Lord God are all aspects of the same single diety.

Mary, St. Paul, and the other saints may well have churches named after them, but that’s not a comment on their divinity, merely on the veneration and respect accorded to them.

  • Rick

I’m sorry, ruadh I guess I’m not expressing my thoughts clearly enough. Let me try again.

Churches generally have Jesus Christ up there in front to pray to, or Mary, or some Saint. I’ve never seen “God” up there. Maybe because Jesus is supposed to be the personification of God and is easier to depict than a nebulous entity such as God? (Even though popular pictorials have it that God is a slightly tubby old man with a bushy white moustache and beard!)

Now, the first commandment was: You shall have no other gods before Me. So, if Jesus Christ is venerated as a deity, doesn’t that contravene Commandment #1?


On preview:

Bricker, thank you for your clarifications about Mary.
You mention

Could you help me out by giving me some verses from the Bible that posit this?

Jesus is the Son of God but this relationship is not a biological/genetic one (it cannot be a biological one…What is God’s DNA like?). He is the Son - in the sense that he was sent to live on earth - but at the same time he is God. As Bricker has said, “Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Lord God are all aspects of the same single diety (sic).” Therefore he is not a human venerated as a deity - he is the Deity (the human form). As such, the 1st Commandment is not contravened since Christians still worship only one God.

Not easily done. This is merely a tradition in the Catholic Church. Presumably, some pope or one of the great Catholic Thinkers came to this conclusion many centuries ago, and it stuck. This is also true of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, and of her eternal virginity. Neither of these claims have a Biblical source.

(This is in Great Debates now?! I thought it was a rather mundane, piddling question when I posted it!)

[quote]
Julius Henry: Not easily done. This is merely a tradition in the Catholic Church. Presumably, some pope or one of the great Catholic Thinkers came to this conclusion many centuries ago, and it stuck.**

That’s rather odd, and seems overly convenient. Surely there must be some formal reasoning behind this consensus?

Jesus is the Son of God but this relationship is not a biological/genetic one (it cannot be a biological one…What is God’s DNA like?).

It HAD to have been biological, too. If not, Jesus would have been born a girl because all Mary had was X chromosomes. That Y had to come from somewhere.

Now as far as HOW God did that, dunno. :slight_smile:

More about Mary and Original Sin

From http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm:

'In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.”
Don’t know if this is the first official recognition of the lack of Orginal Sin. Can anybody help me out on this one?

((I cannot believe I am posting in Great Debates. Please take mercy–I started this conversation somewhere else.))

What does it mean to be born without original sin? How does that work? Was there something special about Mary’s parents?

Also, what part does Joseph play in Jesus’ birth? I’m not really clear on the details, so help me out.

Jesus is God. When we pray to Jesus, we are praying to God.

More or less, yes. Since Jesus had a physical form while He was on earth, it is considered more permissible to create artistic depictions of Jesus than of God the Father. (Nothing is known of Jesus’ actual appearance.)

Although your description of God sounds more like Santa Claus.

See above. Jesus is not a deity; He is The Deity. We worship God, “neither dividing the essence nor confounding the persons.”

The doctrine of the Trinity - one God in three Persons - is pretty much impossible to explain. I mean literally impossible, not just difficult.

There are a few.

John 1:1-3,, or John 10:22-38.

I hope this helps.

I should give the disclaimer that my understanding of the Trinity was officially condemned as heresy (with the excommunication of Sabellius in AD 260) , so it should not be accepted as official doctrine.

Regards,
Shodan

aasna: Among other things, I was raised Lutheran – never baptized – and was given the opportunity to choose my own path fairly early on. I quit going after the age of 12.

One of the important factors in my decision to quit was this part of our Sunday liturgy, read aloud and with conviction:

[ul]Pastor Most merciful God,

Congregation We confess that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. For the sake of your Son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Forgive us, renew us, and lead us, so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways, to the glory of your holy name. Amen.

Pastor Almighty God, in his mercy, has given his Son to die for us, and for his sake, forgives us all our sins. As a called and ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and by his authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Congregation Amen. [/ul]My church recited the Apostles’ Creed:[ul]I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.*
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen[/ul]
We also prayed directly to God during the Offering, via guided silent reflection, oral recitation and through hymns, such as the Communion Hymn “This is the feast of victory for our God.”

My church was Saint Peter’s, which was a little more formal than most Lutheran churches I’ve since visited. Above the altar, we had a full-size, enthroned effigy to the Trinity – a bearded white man in the center with an empty throne at either side. If I remember correctly, the empty throne to the left (the right hand of the Father) was embossed with a “shield” containing a lamb, a halo and the cross; on the other empty throne was a “shield” with scepter and Infinity.

The main time that we celebrated the Virgin Mary was on Christmas Eve. It was always a solemn, warm celebration of the earthly bond between God and human. It gave us time to reflect on the God in all of us; the one aspect of the Christian Faith that I truly honor.

The Trinity is not found in Scripture, other than a questionable passage in I John 5:7-8 about there being three witnesses: the Spirit, the water and the blood. Some manuscripts, including the Textus Receptus, have that passage expanded to “there are three witnesses in Heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, and three witnesses on earth, the Spirit, the water, and the blood.” The more conservative Christians will insist that the expanded reading, by being part of the Textus Receptus, is an absolute asserion of the Trinity, but it seems evident that it was an early expansion of John’s words since it is absent from most of the older manscripts.

However, it is a logical conclusion from beliefs that are clearly aserted in Scripture. (I refuse to dredge out a shopping list of prooftexts for these.) First, there is only one God worth the name: YHWH Lord of Hosts. Second, Jesus is God Incarnate as a human being. (Two supporting elements: He is referred to as Kyrie, “Lord,” a title extended only to God, over and over again; twice Paul calls Him God explicitly, in unequivocl context. Finally, the Spirit of God is unquestionably God, and the experience of the early Christians was that the Spirit is a person distinct from the Father and Son, as well as being the Paraclete whom Jesus promises He will have God (i.e., the Father) send.

Now, most Christians will say that your worship should be directed at the Holy Trinity alone. Protestants are fairly unanimous that all prayers are directed at the Three-Person God or at one of His Persons. Requesting the intercession of a saint who has presumably gone to Heaven and enjoys God’s ear is considred acceptable and even proper piety by Catholics, Orthodox, and many Anglicans. It is considered to trespass on the worship due to God alone by most Protestants. Mary is just the top-ranked Saint on the all time Saint Hit Parade, combining a a monotheization of the human tendency to have a mother goddess with the honor due her (and called for in Scripture, by the way) as the one who humbly accepted God’s commission to bear the Messiah – and hence became the only human being ever to have God inside her in an other-than-receive-cmmunion sense. Because early heresies attempted to relate the Christ role to God in ways other than the orthodox Trinitarian understanding, the Fourth General Council defined explicitly that Jesus was always God the Son, even from before birth, in a hypostatic union of the mortal human and the divine, and in consequence that Mary was the Bearer of God, the Theotokos, and deserving of honor as such. This is a Christological doctrine, not a Mariological one, in origin and as maintained by the Orthodox today.

The Episcopal Church, being a liturgical church, has standard written prayers used in public worship. I once did a census of these, out of curiosity, to see to whom they were addressed.

About 20% were to “God” unspecified. About 70% were addressed to the Father, referred to as God or Lord in most cases, but concluding with “through Jesus Christ our Lord” and in a few cases mentioning his Fatherhood. About 10% were addressed to Jesus. A couple of prayers are directed at the Holy Trinity explicitly, i.e., addressed to all three Persons. One of these requires three pray-ers speaking separately, each directing his passage to one of the three Persons, following which the first person to pray adds a concluding paragraph addressed to the Trinity. (This is the only case in which a prayer directed at the Holy Spirit specifically occurs in the BCP.) Interestingly, the prayers directed at Jesus seem to be much more “heart prayers” as opposed to “head prayers” – emontionally rather than logically based petitions.

From what I know of Catholic liturgics, it would be quite possible to live out one’s life as a faithful Catholic, and even a priest, without ever once praying to Mary or another saint – the corporate prayers and much of the personal devotions are directed at God in one of His Persons. The cultus of Mary and of the saints is very much a matter of personal devotion or joint prayers of like-minded people in a non-mandatory context. (The Angelus, which focuses on the Hail Mary, and the Rosary, are examples of such personal devotions.)

There is a logical disconnect betwen Jesus as “Son of God” and Jesus as “God the Son” which Christians do not attempt to decipher – the terms are synonymous despite their obvious apparent paradoxicality.

God can create the Heavens and the Earth in the matter of days. So I think he could whip up a Y chromosome.

Either that or a wizard did it.