Thank you, all. This has definitely helped clear up some questions I’ve harboured for quite a while.
In the Byzantine Rite liturgy (for both Catholics and Orthodox), the Theotokos (Mother of God)'s intercessions are asked for repeatedly in the litanies, and the hymn sung immediately after the consecration of the Eucharist, the Axion Estin, is in praise of the Theotokos. Hymns to the Virgin are even more prevalent in the hours, especially matins.
Interestingly, the Eastern rites have a large number of prayers and hymns directed toward the Holy Spirit; the only one I can think of that’s common in the West is “Veni Sancte Spiritus.”
Well, it is genetic, as Jesus’ Father was God, when He became human.
Well, Mary prayers are denominational, but personally, I pray to the Father, as well as the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I get focused on one above the other.
How is it discounted? He’s mentioned in a book that has lasted long beyond his life. As for Mary, she is blessed to have carried the Son of God, nothing more. Anything above that is church tradition. Solomon was blessed, as was John the baptists mother.
So Svt4Him God has a Human genetic code, since you say he was the genetic Father of Jesus. I think you may be a bit muddled up with the meaning of the term genetic.
My question: what exactly does it mean to say Jesus is God. God is defined by omniscience and omnipotence (among other things), isn’t he? But Jesus doesn’t possess those attributes, right? So how can he be God?
He wasn’t omniscient and omnipotent? I was under the impression that he was both, only that he chose not to ‘display’ (for want of a better word) these attributes. All the suffering he underwent on behalf of mankind was a reflection of this decision.
Or is that way off base?
The portrayal of Jesus in the Gospels is remarkably inconsistent on this, if what you’re searching for is “did He have divine knowledge or not.” In Mark He is portrayed as a human being – one with miraculous powers, but very much a limited human being. In John He is very much in charge, the divine Word of God in human form. Matthew and Luke take a middle path.
Taking it all together, He seems to have had a “hotline to the divine” where He had the answers and abilities He needed for the occasion, but by no means the fullness of the divine omniscience and omnipotence. Theologians refer to this as the Kenosis, which is merely Greek for “emptying.” I.e., the eternal God the Son had all the knowledge, wisdom, and power of the Father, but put it aside to become truly a human being, with our doubts and fears, joys and sorrows, etc.
This is nowhere overtly stated in Scripture, but it is so strongly implied as to be the equivalent of a direct statement in the prologue to John and in Philippians 2:1-11, which is Paul exhorting the Philippian Christians to practice humility, and holding up Christ as the supreme example of this. (And for those who usually don’t look up proof texts, may I recommend this one – it’s one of the most beautful pieces of poetry in the entire Bible, as well as having a worthwhile moral and theological point.)
FWIW, those who customarily practice pious acts during service, mostly in the “liturgical churches” (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran) ordinarily honor the mention of the Incarnation in the Creed and in the canon of the Eucharist by a deep bow, humbling onself as one is reminded of the remarkable act of divine humility.
Thank you Polycarp. I knew that we were supposed to bow during the Creed, but I didn’t know why.
“Taking it all together, He seems to have had a “hotline to the divine” where He had the answers and abilities He needed for the occasion, but by no means the fullness of the divine omniscience and omnipotence”
So getting back to my question how does this affect the “Jesus is God” belief if he didn’t possess those divine attributes while he was actually living as a man? Or is it that Jesus is equated with God only before and after his earthly life?
The attributes do not define God; rather, He defines the attributes. Hence if He is not the ultimate in furriness (to pick a characteristic more or less at random), that does not diminish the fullness of who He is.
Rather, the one thing that an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot know is the visceral feeling of what it is like to be finite and impotent to make changes that are heartfeltedly needed. A beloved peson dying slowly in pain of cancer, for example, and one cannot fix the problem nor know what to do.
And so Jesus became man, with all our limitations, to know how we feel and to reach out to us and bridge the gap between God and man.
We pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ, Jesus stated for us to pray in his name, in Romans it tells us he intercedes for us, then in 1 Timothy 2:1-8 it tells us that Jesus is our only mediator between God and men. In thinking about this as I was looking up these verses and the Bible says that Jesus is our only mediator to God, why would we pray to saints? Would it be wrong to pray to saints in Gods’ eyes?
John 14: 1 – 31
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Romans 8: 1 - 39
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
1 Timothy 2:1-8
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
This makes me wonder if you’re thinking that the physical depictions of various religious figures that are found in churches are the actual objects of worship; this isn’t (or at least shouldn’t be) the case.
OK,
Mary was not without sin. She was a sinner just like everyone else. The “Immaculate Conception” crowd states that she was born sinless. So, was Mary’s mother a sinner? Where does one draw the line? Mary was undoubtably a special person, one could claim a religious holy person, because she was the one who raised the Christ.
Yes, Mary had other children. Jesus’ first younger brother was St. James. The bible clearly speaks of Jesus having brothers or sisters. I mean she was married. what was poor Joseph supposed to do with himself?
God created sex and procreation, and according to the religion, only married people are supposed to have sex and make babies. An angel told Joseph that his responsibility was to be with mary, to marry her and to raise the Christ and as a command of Genesis from God, to “be fruitful and multiply.”
Amen brother.
Agreed. From my hazy recollection, the Anglican and most Protestant churches have an empty cross behind the alter. The idea is that Christ is risen and the empty cross is the sign of redemption. I think. It’s been years since I was a choir boy. The Catholic Church does have the crucified Christ to remind, I believe, worshippers of the sacrifice.
Saints and Mary would most likely be found in Catholic churches. The saints as exemplars of various virtues, but not as objects of worship.
Ah, that does clear it up somewhat. Given my religious background (Hinduism), I automatically assumed that the deity depicted in front of you is the one you’re directly offering prayers to.
I’m curious about one thing, though. Grey mentions that most Anglican and Protestant churches have an empty cross at the altar, as opposed to Catholic churches, which are more likely to depict a crucified Jesus. Furthermore, a point is made about depictions of the Saints and Mary being more common in Catholic churches. Why this distinction? Is it a purely symbolic means of differentiation that has evolved over time, or does it have its roots in a more fundamental schism in faith?
The official explanation for religious imagery in Christian Churches is that it is a form of commentary - the stained-glass windows and murals are a traditional story-telling method (the ability to read has not always been common), but in truth there probably is* a little bit of idolatry (or something sympathetic to that sort of thing) in there, given that Christianity has absorbed or incorporated so many aspects of other cultures and religions.
Huuuuh??? I’m also Lutheran (baptized and confirmed) and we never (and I mean never) recited the Apostle’s Creed the way you wrote it, because it contains this one line heeeere:
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
that just doesn’t sit too well with any of the Lutherans I know.
Also, I don’t remember there being any special attention being payed to Mary in any of the Lutheran services I went to.
In fact the following website lists the main remaining differences between the Catholic and Lutheran church. Here is a quick translation for those unfamiliar with German:
1.: In Catholic belief the Pope is the direct successor of Saint Peter and as such the leader and “sheperd” of all Christians. The Lutheran and Orthodox churches do not agree.
2.: According to the Catholic (and Orthodox) church, an ordained priest is permanently “changed” by being ordained. They are considered different than other baptized Christians. They can only be ordained by bishops who are in turn ordained by other bishops going back all the way to the original apostles (apostolic succession). The Lutheran church sees the role of “sheperd” as a function (albeit wanted by God) that the congregation can grant someone. All the pre-reformation churches don’t agree with this and thus do not consider Lutheran priests “proper” priests.
3.: According to Catholic (and Orthodox) belief only an ordained priest can consecrate the bread and wine of the Eucharist. In Lutheran belief any baptized member of the congregation can consecrate the bread and wine.
4.: According to the Catholic (and Orthodox) belief, the spirit of Jesus remains in the consecrated bread and wine, so that these can be stored in the church, worshipped and brought to the sick. According to Lutheran belief, the consecrated offerings become simple bread and wine again after the Eucharist.
5.: The Catholic (and Orthodox) church celebrates seven holy sacraments. The Lutheran church only recognizes two (baptism and Eucharist). The others (matrimony, confirmation, ordination) are only blessings, not sacraments.
6.: Lutherans do not accept the honoring of Maria and other saints, because they fear the honoring of God will be lessened by this. The Catholic belief that Mary was born without sin and that she ascended directly to heaven are not supported by scripture according to Lutherans.
7.: According to Catholic teachings the understanding of scripture is based on the tradition and teachings of the Catholic church. For Lutherans, the scripture is self-explanatory and can be interpreted and understood by everyone.
8.: The community of church plays a much more important role in the Catholic church. It is one of the sacraments.
catholic refers to “universal,” not Roman Catholic, hence the lower case.
Thank You, Crazy Grady.
Mary is indeed very special and chosen by God, but
Mary’s geneology goes all the way back to Adam which means she is not sinless.
(Rom 3:23 KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(Rom 3:23 HG) . pas . hamartano . hustereo hustereo . . doxa . theos (all, every, the whole)
Mary was part of the human race and considered part of the ALL.
There is none righteous, no, not one
there is none that doeth good, no, not one
^ includes Mary
If Mary was without sin, she wouldn’t need a savior, and she said that she rejoices in God her Savior.
There is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus, (1 Tim 2:5 KJV - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
We do not need to pray to saints.
Mary also had other children:
(Mark 6:3 KJV) Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
(Mat 13:55-56 KJV) Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? {56} And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
(Mat 1:25 KJV) And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
(Mat 1:25 HG) . ginosko . . heos . . tikto tikto . prototokos huios . . kaleo . onoma iesous
Ever hear of the Immaculate Conception? Mary was born without original sin. (Yes, I know, that’s Catholic doctrine)
Why not?
Interstingly enough, the words translated as various forms of ‘siblings’ can also be translated as ‘cousins’. And I like what someone said in this thread, although I can’t seem to find it now: Mary carried the Son of God in her womb for 9 months. How could she carry another child in the womb that carried Jesus?