Jews and Arabs in the 17th century?
I am amazed!
Surely not enough to influence an election, though. 
Arabs and crypto Jews came to New Mexico with the Spanish in 1598. The unique architecture is a mixture of Native American and Arab styles.
There weren’t many elections prior to 1847.
I was on a panel at a meeting of Archaeologists. The guy who presented ahead of me told about the inquisitors coming to New Mexico to inspect the governors penis for signs of attempted circumcision. The governor claimed he had herpes.
Hard act to follow.
Crane
Dear Crane,
I think you do not understand or cannot handle the perspective Israel has for Hamas. Hamas I repeat is a terrorist organisation according to both EU, US and Israel (but not limited to). This is why the 2nd subject (Security along Israeli and Palestinian borders).
For 3 and 4 we pretty much agree.
For 5, this is, as you’ve said, the interesting part. This is not a political or military strategy or propaganda. This is a moral value, a question of preserving the historic values of Jews, the Jewish Homeland Eretz Israel. Now, firstly I am pretty sure you understand the uniqueness of the Israel as being the only Jewish State… Thus we cannot expect there to be more Arabs than there are Jews and there should definitely be some immigration policies to proven this. Secondly, Jews should of course be allowed in Palestine but of course to preserve national identity the majority of the people in Palestine should not be Jews, rather than Palestinians.
For your questions:
-
Israelis should not maintain their forces (IDF) in Palestinian territories… Why would you think this is a necessary step, assuming Hamas would be ousted and eradicated, there would be no need for this and both nations could exist as fully sovereign states, peaceful residing besides each other. Are there any Mexican troops in US? No, right.
-
Land is limited for all nations. I don’t know why you would bring this up. Adding to that although Israel has a relatively small size, it also has a relatively slow fertility ratio and enough infrastructure to house all its citizens.
-
I ironically don’t have much knowledge on this fact, but what I know is that Israel controls all of Gaza’s water channels thus if there is no peace this will be bad for Palestinians. If there is peace on the contrary Palestinians can control their own water and they can supply Israel with it too.
“Crypto Jews”?
Also, no Arabs didn’t come with the Spaniards. However centuries of Spain being ruled by Muslims had a cultural affect.
Knowledgable,
I have general difficulty with the concept of terrorists. Terrorism is a military tactic not a political entity. It is a military tactic that has been employed by both the United States and Israel (intimidation of a civilian population to achieve political goals). Prior to the recent incursion, by Israel, Hamas was losing popularity. Had Israel backed the unity government, Hamas would have faded away.
Palestine cannot afford, and Israel will not tolerate, a Palestinian Military presence. There are many reasons why it would be a bad idea. Maybe in the future. The US does not have bases in Mexico, but we do in Japan and Korea.
I am concerned that Israel does not have sufficient land to be self sufficient.
Israel is a fantastic place for history. I especially like Caesarea and Megiddo. But, those places are not uniquely Jewish. Why the need for a Jewish homeland? All Jews are not going to go there to live. The concept is too close to that of the White Supremacists in the US.
So, who is a Jew?
Crane
Ibn,
I believe it was both.
Crypto-Jews are Jews who falsley converted to Christianity to avoid the Inquisition. Many came to the New World so they could resume practicing as Jews.
Crane
The Israeli-they weren’t Israelis yet, but let’s ignore that-terrorists blew up the King Davis Hotel in British run Palestine. They called them on the phone several times about it, and were concerned that the British were not evacuating the King David.
Hamas arranges for children to be blown up. The put their rockets in UN schools so that the Israelis will attack them.
Someone whose Mommy is a Jew, or someone who converted to Judaism.
There was a group of Jews in Spain whose ancestors converted to prevent death from the Inquisition (now THERE is terrorism for you) who would never eat pork on Fridays, the Sabbath Eve. The descendents did not know why, it was a family tradition. Ferdinand and Isabella, having run the Moors (and the Jews, ending the Golden Age of Judaism) out of Spain, were confident enough in their power to finance Christoper Columbo (or whatever his name really was-see the History Channel) in his voyage to find India, moron that he was.
It’s cute, but I don’t really know that the area’s been fought over that much. We’re talking about 4000 years of history here, in an area that’s in a strategic crossroads. Of course there’s been fighting. But I think the area gets the reputation of being unusually violent, and I don’t know that it’s deserved.
King David hotel was the British military headquarters.
Thanks, I have wondered why they made it a target.
Umm…no.
Following La Reconqista all of the Muslims(whom you’ve incorrectly labeled “Arabs”) were slaughtered or ethnically cleansed. As far as the Spaniards were concerned, Muslims may have been living there for 8 centuries, but they were alien invaders and they had to be gotten rid of.
They didn’t bring any over to the New World with them.
However yes, much Spanish art and architecture and even portions of the Spanish language were heavily influenced by Islamic culture.
This is a stunningly ignorant (and biased) assessment of the situation.
So, this has been a great and intense debate but I would like to sum up some points so there is a clear understanding of the subject and if you would like to add anything please do so.
Before starting I would like to note nuking Gaza is not an option since it would destroys the international reputation of Israel, definitely start a war in the region, limit Israel’s aid from US and cause nothing but trouble for Israel.
Israeli-Palestinian has been a long-standing one, yet to be resolved, exacerbated by some incidents, having its immense impact on Arab-Israeli relations and the way the Westerners view Israel.
Background: After their second diaspora, Jews were forced to leave Europe after facing the danger of losing their lives in the Nazi Era. Some did before the WWII started and the other -the ones that could- left at times of war, facing severe Nazi atrocities. They were left homeless, their homes wrecked, their property confiscated, relatives killed (Much like Gaza, eh? But don’t confuse Israelis with Nazis because the one sparking violence in Palestine is Hamas the “representative” of the Gazans itself).
Jewish masses were transported to Palestine the lucky ones got to keep their stuff all they needed was a bit of land and the Brits were generous enough to offer them refuge in Palestine (the region). Hundreds of thousands of Jews were evacuated from Europe to Palestine and they were settled there, started small “local” businesses, they had to start their lives all over again, all their previous efforts, hard works to have a decent life vanished.
Arabs seeing all these Jews got startled by this. In 1945 the war had ended and the Jews were mostly settled in Palestine and adopted it as their new homes. In 1947, the World Zionist Organisation started negotiations with the US and UK governments in order to establish a Jewish homeland in order to prevent another Jewish diaspora or ethnic cleansing against them. In 1948 these negotiations came to a conclusion and UN had partitioned %56 of the Palestinian region for the Jews which composed around 37% of population and designated the rest for the creation of a Palestinian state. (Note: This might seem an unfair partitioning but come on now, not a single Arab state cared about Palestinians before the Jews came and they used the Palestinians as propaganda. Utter arrogance.).
Then it came down to voting, all Arab states, Cuba, Turkey and some other countries voted against the partitioning and the rest voted for with 10 abstentions. Now I hate being racist, but the Arabs being the Arabs they are denied to acknowledge the resolution and the state of Israel and said they would intervene the implementation of this resolution. Thus in 1948 the day after Israel had been established, Arabs attacked, civil war broke out and the State of Israel was fighting for itself against all the Arab neighboring states against her.
The war ended with decisive Israeli victory. Arabs were frustrated knowing that they would have to live along Jews. This war showed how arrogant Arabs were not acknowledging internationally valid resolutions and violating them. The defeat was embarrassing.
In 1964 PLO was founded by Arab League countries for the creation of a Palestinian state via armed conflict, it didn’t recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel and it frequently staged guerrilla attacks on Israel. Israel saw PLO as a terrorist organisation and US, Israel and UK voted against PLO’s “Non-Member Observer” status in UN, which meant it could debate in Security Council and later on the General Assembly session.
Then in 1967 the 6-Day War started. Egypt closed the Straits of Tirans to Israeli access and this was considered an act of war according to the 1948 armistice, thus Egypt also removed the UN troops from its borders and it deployed all of its forces to the border with Israel following false-information about Israel mobilizing her troops to the Jordan border. What came next was Jordan and Lebanon doing the same. Naturally this alerted Israel and she made pre-emptive strikes against these countries, surprising them and eventually winning another decisive war against 3 Arab states supported by more than 5 other Arab states.
Israel had occupied Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula after this war. In 1973 on the Holiest Day of Judaism, Yom Kippur (I am a Jew myself so I know), Egypt and Syrian armies tried to regain the land they have lost in the 1967 war. This was caused because Israel declined an offer made by Egypt to make a non-belligerency agreement in exchange for the Sinai Peninsula, Golan Heights, Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and West Bank and the returning to the pre-1967 borders. Naturally, Israel rejected. Again, Israel went deep into Suez and repulsed the Syrian Army quickly. Showing how impressive the IDF were. During the war captured and surrendered Israeli forces were killed by both the Egyptians and Syrians and meanwhile Israel didn’t kill anyone from the trapped 3rd Army of Egypt.
In 1974 the war had formally ended and in 1979 Camp David Accords were signed and Egypt became the first Arab country to make a peace agreement with Israel. This was ignored by Syria and Hezbollah from Lebanon fired rockets in response to this to North Israel. Israel withdrew its troops from the Sinai peninsula
In 1987 (Gaza and West Bank was still under Israeli occupation after 1967 war) the First Intifada occurred and Palestinians revolted against the Israeli occupation. Lots of people were left dead. It ended in 1993 Oslo Accord were signed; with US and Israel recognizing the legitimacy of PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinian people and PLO recognizing Israel’s right to exist. Just one year after this, in 1994 Israel and Jordan signed a peace treaty and this was the second Arab country to sign a peace treaty with Israel.
In 2005 Israeli forces unilaterally disengaged from Gaza Strip. Leaving Gaza to Palestinian administration and in 2006 Hamas won the legislative elections, which led to Israel, Egypt and some Western countries to impose sanctions on it. After this Hamas government couldn’t pay the salaries of the civil workers and this caused the major opposition party of the Palestinian Authority, Fatah to clash with Hamas. After this Israel and Western countries eased the sanctions on West Bank which was predominantly Fatah affiliated and concentrated sanctions on Gaza, where Hamas ruled.
Gaza became Hamas’ thus Egypt and Israel applied sanctions, thus Gaza is in extreme poverty thus Hamas wants the embargo lifted, thus it needs to leave. From 2006 hundredths of rockets has been launched from Gaza to Israel and there has been 3 large-scale operations by IDF to Gaza.
This will continue as long as Hamas is there. I hope I didn’t skip anything…
Multiple rejection of existence.
3 Major wars with 5 Major Arab countries.
Multiple Arab countries supporting the war.
2 Neighboring Countries with Enmity Status.
3 Civil Wars (2 Intifadas, 1947-1948 Civil War)
3 Operations.
Rockets everyday.
Continuous violence.
Stop Hamas.
Stop Poverty.
Let there be Peace.
Let Palestine as a whole flourish.
There’s probably one or two other reasons.
Well, only if you read my full sentence:
“Before starting I would like to note nuking Gaza is not an option since it would destroys the international reputation of Israel, definitely start a war in the region, limit Israel’s aid from US and cause nothing but trouble for Israel.”
None of which come close to the rather obvious reasons that instantly came to the minds of most readers of your propaganda screed.
Ibn,
You may be correct. I checked a couple of referrences and could not find direct referrence to Arabs or Moors in the Colonial period. That’s also true of the Jews, although we now know communities of Jews were established in the Colonial period.
However, by the 1800s there were migrations of Arabs (mostly Lebanese) in to New Mexico. Some of whom joined already established relatives.
Also, there was Estevan, the Moor, with Cabeza de Vaca. He is only mentioned because he was one of a party of three. Obviously there were Moors with the Conquistadors.
In remote New Mexican towns thaer are still meeting houses for both Muslims and Jews.
Crane
Where did they come from? The Spanish kicked the Moors out of Cordova in 1492.
You left out “killing millions of people by nuking Gaza would be among the most evil atrocities ever perpetrated by anyone ever”.
Nuking Gaza would be untidy.
Crane