That is, at the time of LOTR. I realize that it’s a fantasy book, but if you could correlate their technology to our own, what century would you put them in?
I would say roughly 17th or 18th century Europe. FIreworks exist, and primitive explosives so they have gunpowder, although like the Chinese the idea of firearms hasn’t occurred. Coal is used for fuel, and building with brick (which requires coal-fed kilns to be done on a large scale) The descriptions of the houses in the Shire and their amenities suggest fairly sophisticated craftsmanship. Finally the proto-industrialism of Mordor and of the Shire under “Sharkey” (Saruman) suggest a world on the cusp of beginning an industrial revolution.
17th or 18th? That’s a bit recent when you look at the things they wear, the places they live, the battles they have.
I’d put them more in the 13th, 14th century.
Well, a lot of fantasy seems to mix elements from various parts of history, but Middle Earth was fairly consistent anyway.
The thing that always bothered me about Tolkein’s world was that the tech level never changed, despite a span of what… 10,000 years? From the earliest days of the First Age to the last days of the Third Age, very little technological development occurs, despite having two very canny races (elves and dwarves) and malevolent spirits (Melkor, Sauron) who would embrace any advantage.
But of course, since magic worked so well, why invent gunpowder, heavier than air flight, radio, or internal combustion engines?
Anyway, using GURPS Tech Levels as a measuring stick, Middle Earth is stuck somewhere between TL2 and TL3, depending on the culture. (The Shire and Rohan is more in TL2, while Numenor and Gondor may have made it as far as early TL4.)
Contemporary Earth, on the other hand, is in late TL7, just waiting for things like manned interplanetary travel and fusion reactors to push us into TL8.
Most SF settings, especially space operas like Star Wars and Star Trek, are in TL9 or TL10, perhaps with revered advanced civilizations at TL11 or 12 to drive the plot.
The lack of almost any sort of math is what is most obvious to me.
Certain subsets of the different races were very advanced in architecture, agriculture, animal husbandry, metalurgy, ship building, navigation, etc… But, since many of these same skills were under (or over) lain with elements of the supernatural (steel that glowed when near Orcs, gems that held a spiritual essence, rings that embodied elemental control over nature, doors that could sealed or opened with tricks of language, etc…), what driving need would they have had to advance the merely physical sciences?
To resurrect countless threads on the logic (or lack thereof) of fantasy worlds:
It seems to me that too many of them have medeival/ renaissance level technology and then simply “tack on” the existance of magic, which basicly substitutes for electricity/ cybernetics/ biotechnology.
What I’d really like to see would be a sort of “Grand Unified Theory” of magic and technology, that would explain the underlying precepts of reality that allow both to coexist in the same world.
Don’t confuse style and economcs with scientific advancement.
Regardless, in Tolkein the peoples of Middle Earth undoubtedly saw no great distinction. Magic was and is a part ofthe world, just like the principles of leverage or inertia. By our understanding, their tech level may be low, but they were capable of doing amazing things via their lore and so forth. So, really, Lumpy, ME is what you’re looking for. Magic and science aren’t different things there.
Waistcoats, shirts, trousers, handkerchiefs and cloaks. Hobbit fashion is more like 19th or 20th Century than 17th. A well dressed Hobbit would pass fashion wise in London in 1900 quite happily, and this is approximately what Tolkein intended.
Variously in well appointed, weather proofed holes, treetop lets, grand cities with numerous stone buildings and winding streets. The places they live are no different to the places man people lived in the early 20th century insofar as they are the product of the pas that had not yet been replaced. The difference between life in Yorkshire in 1900 and life in the Shire, or life in Venice in 1900 and life in Minas Tirith are not great.
With a lack of Gunpowder it’s hard to imagine how the battles could be very different. The standard late middle ages/early renaissance weapons and armour seem to be apparent and the tactics, when described, seem to be fairly standard with some emphasis on flexibility to allow for the sudden appearance of dragons, Nazgul etc.
A lot of that could be explained by prejudice and direct interference from the Istari and others.
Remember how much trouble Gandalf went to to destroy Smaug so he couldn’t be used by Sauron? It’s a safe bet that if anyone started to get too good with a truly novel technology then they would be asked to stop or else the work would be sabotaged.
Then we have the prejudice issue. Remember that all the free races had already suffered as a result of embracing new technology under the teutelage of Sauron. I suspect that new technology isn’t exactly seen as a Good Thing.
Not sure this is quite accurate. We don’t have much information about First and Second Age technology, but there’s some suggestion that technological development has gone pretty considerably backwards over the course of the Third. Second-Age Numenor still used swords and sailing ships, but in some other areas their technology may have been ahead of ours. As for the elves, they don’t show much progress because they don’t want it; their culture is all about preserving the present, trying to stop time – that’s what the three Rings are for.
I agree. Especially if you read the descriptions of how Saruman changed Isengard by installing forges and anvils and machines, and how all of this was just a copy of Saurons’s Mordor. New technology in the form of industrialization was very much seen as a bad thing (think also of the description of the new mill in the Shire).
I think I remember reading somewhere in the Silmarillion that the Numenorians actually developed steam engines, but I don’t remember what they used them for. Am I remembering this correctly or did that not happen?
I tend to agree with the the 17th century sentiment, but I wanted to see what other people thought. The Hobbits at least are capable of pretty intricate craftsmanship. And Saruman had access to explosives, and fireworks weren’t unknown in Middle Earth.
Based on the flilms (read the books once a looong time ago), I would also agree with the general sentiment of early 17th century.
But it’s definately not cut and dry.
not only do you have various locations where the scientific and social development resembles earlier/later time periods, but within the same areas you get a jumble of aspects based on different time periods on earth.
Taking a look at their weapons gives us an example.
No one (in the movies atleast) appears to be wearing the full articulated plate of the high medieval period. The peoples of Rohan appear to be in the early middle ages when it comes to armaments (wearing chainmal, hardened leather, brigadine, etc).
Gondor appears to be it’s military superior when you take a look at it’s early plate armor (nothing like the knights of the high middle ages but close).
Damn hamsters keep cutting off my posts!
Short Continuation…
But even within the same people you have people wearing different styles of armor/weapons.
But Elves, Dwarves, and Men had been fighting a (magically and technologically) superior enemy for that 10,000 years. How fast would Britain have industrialized if France nuked two or three cities a year for the last 500 years?